“You Have Cancer” - One Young Husband’s Battle | Jay’s Story: Our World Turned Upside Down

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

And today we're doing a deep dive into walking through cancer. And I think all of us can say we have known someone who's walk through cancer, a loved one, a friend, or have walked through it ourselves. And I am really thankful to have a very special guest today who I'm actually related to through marriage.

His name is Jay, my brother-in-law. And he actually ended up being diagnosed with cancer when he was in his 30s and his children, not even teenagers yet. And I'm really excited to hear his thoughts.

So Jay, welcome to Thrive in the Mess You are um very successful in your field, successful businessman, and you have a beautiful wife, two amazing children, and then you have this cough that came out of nowhere. You want to just kind of dive in and tell us some of your story?

Jay:
Yeah.

Lisa:
And for a long time.

Jay:
Even I cough to this day, it's a trigger. My wife's like, you better go get that checked out. I'm like, I just have a cough.

Uh but no, I I I was coughing uh not only for a week or two or a month or two, it was about ten months of a cough. And it was pretty persistent, uh just like always just irritating me and like uh just I'll take care of that later, as most guys would say. Not a big deal.

I'm just coughing. But I started to lose a lot of weight too. In my mind, I'm like, man, I'm getting in great shape.

Uh going for like 200 pounds and I got down like 150 pounds and then people started to ask me questions like are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm doing great. I'm just like down to a size 32 weights, I'm doing awesome.

Uh maybe even less than that, but it it you can look back at pictures now before he like even knew something was really off. Uh and wanted me to go see a doctor and uh finally in like July uh 2017, I'm like, all right, I'll get I'll get some blood work done and And it's a routine visit and I'll just kinda get back to my uh my life, my day job, and all like I was I was running really fast at the time and uh a lot of this conversation we'll talk about pace is a massive deal to me uh to this day. Like I think and how we look at time and how we uh wrestle with time or ultimately wrestle with God with his timing is a big part of this story.

But um it was I was going super fast. I'm like, all right, I'll get this out of the way. knock it out and go to the doctor.

Uh and it's like on a Wednesday, like on a you know, Wednesday night or Thursday morning, she's like, well, your markers are not good. In fact, I I think you need to go see An oncologist speak quickly, I'm like, what? Like that I was out of left view, like I thought I'll just solve my cough, give me a Z pack or whatever, and I'm back on my way.

Um but the markers I think my hemoglobin levels are like super low and uh my blood count and my my weight subloid counts, all that stuff they'd be like, uh something's not right here. Union oncologists and I I was able to get into strangely enough even clinic within like 24 hours. It doesn't happen this way.

It's pretty much a God thing where like uh a connection called called a board somebody on the booth Uh one of the guys I worked with knew knew the board who called the CEO of the Cleveland Clinic who got me into their top oncologists within like twenty-four to forty-eight hours. So when I'm sitting in front of him and he's looking at my blood work, first thing he said was like How did you get into CB so fast? It's just kind of one of those things that uh things happen quickly.

Uh and we were able to get get to the root of what my cough was about as they took a bunch of scans pretty quickly. I had two massive tumors on my skin. So uh the first thing was like, uh I'm not sure what you know if those are cancer.

You really use the word cancer at the at the moment, but like you you gotta get that out. A spleen is a kind of a nonvital organ, it's basically an a large lymph node, but it really helps with your immune system and most people have 'em. Uh I no longer have my spleen

Lisa:
Right.

Jay:
But it was we're gonna have a splenectomy and they're gonna just kind of you know do it laparoscopically and kind of zip it out. Uh but it was so big, it was about the size of a football. I have a picture of it, it's gross. I don't think I've ever shown you.

Lisa:
You know what's inter I I actually do remember you texted I think you texted family at the time and I was like wow because you had been losing weight But then you had your spleen was huge. But I'm wondering if we could just try to say splenectomy like ten times fast.

Jay:
No, I'm just kidding. That's just a word. One thing when they had my splonectomy, they said, uh, well you have to have a flu shot every year.

I'm like, really? That's that's the one thing I gotta do? Like, yeah, well you you just need to be watching your immune system because you don't have, you know, natural uh we're gonna kinda fight against that.

So it's uh it was huge. Uh you know, they took it out with me like I did a cut me up in the middle so it wasn't lachoscopic it was too big. Uh massive surgery.

I'm in the hospital a couple days, they send me home And my uh oncologist then called me on it's like a falling Friday. By the way, this is this was like late July and all of a sudden like August 8th, or you know, I think it was my surgery about my daughter's birthday, it's like uh had surgery And then that Friday he called him, I need you to come in. I'm like, oh, I just had surgery and I literally can't get out of bed.

Like I'm not come I'm not going anywhere out of my own home. But I have a feeling I know what you can say. Why don't you just say it?

And Corey's on the phone for me. He's like, yeah, well, uh, we did we did a biopsy of of your um spleen. Uh it is tumorous.

It's called diffuse large B cell lymphoma, so he said, I'm like, I don't know what that is, but he basically says not Hoskins lymphoma. He says, uh I I can't I'm not gonna be able to be the one that treats this, but I have another guy, another peer at the Cleveland Clinic. Who does?

In fact, he's doing a clinical trial right now. Why don't you come in uh and meet him as quickly as you can? Uh because they it once they kind of got into the scans and realized they might have gotten it all with surgery, but With that type of fast growing cancer, uh I wouldn't say it's high risk, but it's high growth.

And I say you need systematic treatments they use. So systematic treatment means chemo. Uh you're gonna have to go through, you know, uh round of chemo.

There's a very standard uh dose of what they call RCOP. It's just kind of a cocktail they normally give people with non-Hos lymphoma uh once a week, every three weeks, six times. Uh what they offered me and they said, would you like to be in a clinical trial?

So sure, why not? Uh I was patient number uh seventeen and the first fifteen had already gone into remission, so I was on a pretty new fresh Clinical trials are like those those numbers sound good. When they gave me the odds saying, Well, like normally it's like 70% the survival rate on this cancer, maybe 75%.

Um and they said, if you're gonna get a cancer, this is the one to get People say that a lot of different sick, you might as well get sick like this. I don't know if that was meant to be uh a positive, but are we encouraging? Keep increasing the odds I guess, uh medically uh and scientifically.

I'll take fifteen out of seventeen odds. Uh and all they did was basically introduced another drug for multiple myeloma that they inserted in instead of once a week every three weeks, it was three days. in a week.

So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday regimen. And it just mixed up the dosage of you know what I got. Uh but I had to go in for that treatment six times.

So it's over eighteen weeks. So I think almost like four, five, six months

Lisa:
And you were still recovering from surgery or do you like killing?

Jay:
So like it was like within another week or two, all right, get up out of bed and get in and start uh treatment number one out of six rounds. So that That and there is there was other complications to kind of get into that. Like they had to do a bone marrow uh biopsy and that was painful.

And like Uh as as far as just going through treatment, there there is, you know, whack-a-mole sort of stuff. Um but I guess like anybody who's going through it right now or has gone through it personally or they've seen somebody go through it. Like it it ain't pretty But they uh they gave me good guidance of like, well, y y y this will be a cumulative process.

So as you start going through treatment, uh you may not feel awful on day one or even on day two or day three. In fact You sometimes when they kind of put a bunch of prednisone in you after after you're you like knock you down, they build you back up with a steroid, like you feel like shit man, like wow, this is awesome. I feel great.

Let me go back to work. And I was kind of in the midst of doing work anyways, but again, like I'd screech it all to a halt. Uh and thankfully my team was built up enough to the point where like They didn't really need me there at that moment.

Like they we'd we'd done enough work where like I could step out of it where like it wasn't a radical oh gosh, where where where'd he go? Uh and I had a I had a great mentor and partners and uh teammates that uh not only did the work while I was gone, but obviously were great friends and supported me. So that was kind of where it all started.

Uh In fact, it's again late 2017 and went treatment all the way up to early 2018.

Lisa:
Jay, so okay, that all came really fast and furious. Like and even a ten month cough, like you kind of feel like well, it could be allergies. It could be, you know what I mean?

Especially like you said, the summer, the spring. Um, and so you you find we always kind of write things off, you know. Um Can I treat it myself?

I'm always thinking, you know, on my own. But uh that's a lot coming at you at once. Like you um you're working, you're going fast.

You are, like I've said, you're a leader with all that all of that. You have uh, you know, your wife, your children, and then Boom, like how are you even processing that at that moment? You know what I mean?

You you you learn, okay, they weren't really saying cancer at the beginning but okay, big spleen, this, and then okay, oncologists come in, I'm still recovering, the bone marrow thing. How are you even processing this at that speed where everything just happens so quickly? And what are you thinking?

Jay:
Yeah, I mean it it's uh it is a record player screech all pause sort of moment.

Lisa:
Uh you know, thankfully people do know now what record players are.

Jay:
Warum like we figured out. $40 for a vinyl record? What's wanna?

Uh all Matila Smith, I guess. Um Yeah, it's a it's a big a big screech, uh a a big stoppage, but it I mean it I mean the world didn't stop. I mean the world keeps going on, but like our world kind of you know, at least upside down.

Uh processing, I mean yeah it Uh obviously um being able to talk it through with my wife uh and try to explain it to my kids. I don't think I got a little bit more uh being a bit older than Katie who's was who was younger at the time. It's like, all right, whatever you you know, but i hey, things are gonna change and dad's gonna look a little different, sort of thing.

Uh pretty quick. It wasn't until maybe round three where I had to shave my head or at all and this all started coming out. Maybe it was round two, in between rounds two and three Um, but it yeah, I mean, I lost a lot of weight.

I didn't look I didn't look like me. Uh and again, looking back at it all, it's like, wow, I really didn't look like me. Um During that.

But I mean processing for me was first foremost, we like we just got on our knees and prayed. Like, God, all right, what what are you up to? And or like this is in your hands and and we had tough conversation.

works, uh or that, you know, uh I'll I'll be around forever, or I'll be around much longer. Uh but we had to come to grips with that pretty quickly. Like this this might not end well.

But I said, but that's okay. Like God's got you, God's got this kind of story of play that like uh I think he's gonna come through. I pray that he comes through will We'll have, you know, as much hope as possible, but our our hope is anchored in something much deeper and much bigger uh than an outcome, uh or the circumstances around the treatment.

I mean it it it became a real uh real test of our faith like all right do is what we believe like real uh is what we believe evident then in our life uh to where it's no longer about a belief, it's about like how we how we pour ourselves out uh among our uh inner circle and and for those that we don't know as well or don't know at all. And that was what was most profound. I I I spent for me personally as an introvert, as you like to say, uh I like to process not with people.

I like to process, you know. alone and or I I like to read a lot. This is when I kind of started writing more.

Uh and I wrote a bit for my living, but in a business sense I wrote business reports for Wall Street. Uh so I've been writing for 20 years and now all of a sudden I'm writing personally, but almost as a writing that for me to kind of break down like what God what like how do I really reconcile uh this diagnosis with like where I'm at in life? And like that has some substance to it, not just um hey I got cancer, you know, pity me.

Uh you know, I I I it wasn't like I I I want, you know, um attention to this. I I wanted to find ways that were like God, can you provide a light within me that actually radiates out and provides, you know, context and or uh something of substance for others that they can like, huh, that kind of means something to me. Whether they have gone through cancer or have somebody in their family.

So it became a in an interesting way a bit of a platform. I I didn't really think of it as such uh until I started writing on Caring Bridge that, oh gosh, there's a lot of people that are um that are reading this that like care about me, but like Then like share it into their own circles like that. That's pretty profound.

So it gave me more motivation to process through writing. But by writing, reading, and then I started listening. Um Listening to the ton of podcasts or books on tape.

Now it can start a whole new world for me of of uh content consumption, not for the sake of consumption, but like that that's a way for me to my for my brain to process through what's happening that as I have a little journal decide, I'll I'll like, hey, this really stood out to me, whether it's a Bible works or uh a podcaster that just said something profound. Uh and I I needed that, particularly when treatment was done. Like a little bit during treatment, but when treatment was done That was the way to process.

So we've we have friends here are just going through this now, right?

Lisa:
Like they they just got the diagnosis.

Jay:
They just finished last treatment. I said, do do as best you can to process this on paper. Uh and then through prayer, because like that that is a better way to pray journaling and I'm not I'm not a journaler, I I wouldn't say I'm even now, but putting stuff on paper and writing it down and thinking through it, going for walks, walks alone or walks together.

Um, just slow it down and like there's so much noise in the world that just kind of wants you to keep in your lane and go as fast as you can in that lane to get to the next spot. Like that, you know, you've probably heard it's it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. And boy, has that been, you know, wildly true in my journey.

Uh, you know, to go to journey through that with Courtney and with my kids. Because there's a whole back end of this story that um you know once in remission, like actu that's when the action began for my life. Uh it wasn't like during what was tough.

Uh but God was scripting something pretty pretty mighty uh in in kind of a total different trajectory for my life or for my family's life. Uh and and we had no idea even at the time, even though we prayed. During treatment, God, you know, do you do you like because we had a bit of a 10-year sprint?

And by the way, it wasn't just work or community or family, it was also a church. I I'd I'd been recently uh be on the elder board and be the chair of our elders at church while this was all going on. That was that was heavy work.

We were kind of in a big turn, if you will, at the church. Just trying to like get some inertia back in the right direction for where we're at. That was a lot that was a pretty big load.

Lisa:
Um you know, literally You've been a leader wherever opportunity has led you, you know.

Jay:
So there's a lot. And so it just God, is the last is the next ten years gonna look like the last ten years or um is the next chapter like what is the next chapter look like? And I think this is probably something everybody whether they they're praying to a higher power or not, they're wondering what's next uh what is the page turn what what you know what is around the corner and uh I had a great mentor once tell me uh If you think you know it's around the corner, or you're just gonna like just charge ahead and like, I got I got this.

And by the way, a lot of people said, You back this Jay. I got nothing. Uh I got nothing on the wheel.

Like uh I know people say that, like a bit of a you know, you know, chip on the shoulder, punch on the shoulder. You you got this dude. And uh I I just was like, uh no, no, I don't. Nor nor does anybody who think that they you know got this, got this.

But anyways, my mentor said if if you if you charge ahead as if you've got the next chapter already solved or planned. Uh that tends not to show up right or it may not play play out the way uh you think or want. But if you do have open hands and you don't you admit to yourself you don't know what's around the corner like badwood, do you just step into that and show me the way?

And then I'll follow your steps, uh, very much out of Proverbs, then uh then like God tends to show up a bit more and and lead you down a path of his faithfulness that leads to our faithfulness we kind of grabbed onto and like, all right, then then something can like actually really happen. And that's where I think inertia happens. But again, we were praying God would would uh coming outside of this treatment or this cancer inflection in our life midlife crisis if you will uh textbook uh would uh would alter something in our next chapter.

Uh so all that we said here here's kind of how the page did turn then. Uh so right I mean it went through Oh you know, six six months of treatment. So it's from like uh late August was all this diagnosed in September, like beginning of September, all the way through you know, late January, rang the bell in February, I'm done.

I got my scans in February. And they're like, yeah, this this worked. Like you're you're cancer free, you're in remission.

A huge bell ring, you know, having people in the room, nurses. Like that that's there's nothing more special than that. I remember it.

It was like yesterday.

Lisa:
I remember seeing the video and it was just very that that moment that ring the bell, you know, I know it's powerful with cancer, but I d sometimes I think of we might need that just in other situations in life that we just need to celebrate and even little steps. Like that's a big one. But it is very emotional for uh when your loved one has walked through that or a close friend, you know, to see that.

And honestly for anybody. We walked by a bell recently. We just had an appointment somewhere And we walked by this bell and I'm like, I just stopped for a minute.

And Rick and I were there and I was like, wow, you just think of the moments that have occurred. at that bell and how dramatic that is. So yeah, I have not forgotten that.

Jay:
Ring the bell. Like you literally have bring bring a bell with you to signify a moment, whether it's uh you know ending treatment or whatever it is, it's it's a powerful uh Audible and memorable way to literally ring the bell. Now I had I I oddly enough, our cancer hospital did not have a bell.

I actually thought it was very strange. On their own. So I recruited a cowbell.

I got a cowbell brought it in.

Lisa:
More cowbell? No.

Jay:
And that's exactly what I said at the moment.

Lisa:
There is cowbell, this thing that sold me on the music For the podcast, there's cowbell in it.

Jay:
Cowbell's pretty good. Well I did say I've got a fever and only prescription is more cowbell. Right the bell than that.

So um and and if anybody has a chance to like go to a bell syrup, particularly Dick Faitel just finishes like fifth of this and he rings the bell. Like it's it's it's great to be at it. Um one of our uh Uncle Jimmy's daughter went through this uh and I was able to be in Tampa Because again, this is a little bit of my uh you know post-treatment.

I had just finished treatment, I was in Tampa uh and I got to go to her bell ringing ceremony. I don't even know her that well, but like inside the family, just like I'm celebrating with you, I'm for you. And it's just powerful support for that person.

Um and and for those like it's hard not to be impacted by that if you step into somebody else's uh cancer story and help them bring the belt. All that being said, this is February 2018. I'm like, great, time to get back to work.

I mean it it doesn't take long, like I'm gonna get my life back uh mentally. And you're like, all right, um there's great being back at work where they had a cake for me, welcome back, Jay. And I I was I was working-ish through this journey.

I was like plugged in but like not I always like totally out for six months. Um but I didn't work normal hours and you know, sometimes you're up in the middle of the night. It's very strange again, thinking of timing or the time of that season is just all muddled together.

Lisa:
Uh Jay, real quick, I I know in one of your blogs I saw this that you wrote at the time, you're like your repeated circle through the day. Like when you think of trying to juggle work, you talked about take pills, eat, ache complain about the ache, walk the kids to the bus, check email, eat again, lie down, watch Netflix, stand up, stretch. sit down, complain about the ache some more, walk to the bus, watch ESPN, eat, take pills, struggle to fall asleep.

Repeat, wash, and rinse. So that's a that's an intense cycle, you know. So to juggle work in that, you don't even say work in there because even the mental capacity and energy, I feel like, cause all our energy is going to all of this and juggling the emotional uncertainty.

unknown. I like you know, your wife even that like Courtney even said about uh we're not promised we'll make it through this. And even when we talk to God, I've shared the story of even when um You know, the day my mom died, we were in the ER and I prayed, Lord, can you have life come back into her eyes?

And he answered that differently that day. You know, she had more life than ever now. But uh but that wasn't what I had hoped, you know, and but I it sometimes it can go whichever direction.

And one other thing, while you were talking, I couldn't help but think of how Um, my my dad will often talk about our situation is our assignment. So I can't help but think about people. You've already talked about people in your world.

who have been encouraged and who you got to share some of your hope with also. Um and you were talking about, you know, just let whatever, you know, let me be a light and encouragement to others through that journey. And even since then, like Going to, you know, someone else's bell ringing and all.

But when our when we don't necessarily like the situation, but somehow God's like, you know what? Some people in that world really may need you at that moment in time and need some of your story and your hope and your encouragement. So I I couldn't help but think about that.

And I do want to jump uh I you you were talking about jumping back into work, but um I wanted to touch on you also talked earlier about You're you and Courtney were looking for a hope uh that was an anchor that was um that was not just, you know, we can't just trust in the chemo and the pills and the and all the things, but you had a different kind of hope. Can you just talk a little bit about that? The hope that was your anchor?

Jay:
Sure.

Lisa:
Yeah, I mean I um And why that's important to you and no I mean it's funny because we we had plenty of people um

Jay:
Outside of our faith tradition, our faith background, say, hey, I just, you know, uh I'm thinking good thoughts your way, or I'm I'm passing on some good vibes. That's great. Or even if they're saying like I'm I'm lifting up prayers, like to who and to what, like it would we appreciate it, but it it doesn't ring true to us because it it you know was like we pray it uh to the one creator and then with you know uh the redemption that we've uh committed our life to uh to diesas that would you know actually give us not just uh hope for the n here and now, but hope eternally that like actually there is a a much bigger story at play here that is uh that that the clock doesn't end.

Uh and and that but it has implications for how we live today. Uh to me that this this anchoring into like all right that doesn't matter like my story or what I'm going through is actually not the point. My point is like how do I how do I pour into that bigger story of which I'm just a a piece of or cog up and uh I created in his image, but for his glory, not for mine.

And kind of wrestling through This isn't about me and or like I don't want to make this all about me. Uh, you know, the what was me? Like I'm I'm a victim in this, like why you know, by God and shaking my fist.

uh was just not our not our initial take nor ever do we kind of wrestle with doubt through this. Now I there'd plenty of people that probably like Why would God ever let this happen to me? Or why why why would a loving God allow even cancer to exist in the first place and just sickness?

But like that the brokenness that has been there from the beginning of time. And the brokenness we see all around us, I mean it everybody's broken, everybody's a mess. One of my favorite books back on the shelf over here around community, it's a John Orpert book.

And the title alone kind of speaks volume like everybody's normal until you get to know them. And like once you get to know that it's whether their weirdness or just their brokenness, like that, there's a rawness that's going on all around us. That might just happen to be through a cancer.

So fill in a blank, whatever your story is, but if if there's not an anchor around that in that kind of storm, uh good luck. I mean like the Bible often talks about like you know, while w waffling in the in the reeds or kind of the the waves that can get you know splash around us if we don't have an anchor. Uh and thankfully like we did and we do Otherwise, like it would have been much more difficult not only going through that, but like kind of seeing through the storm or seeing, you know, even it even if there wasn't light at the end of the tunnel, like how how would there be light in darkness?

And the only way we were able to kind of, you know, process that or or consider that is like, all right, our our our light is uh is from above. our light uh who who you know he describes himself as the light of the world uh that we wanna we wanna be a part of that. We want to be a city on the hill that has this reflective light that others It's like uh that's actually I'd I'd like to kind of see a little bit more about that or you know, the aroma of Jesus that like that that that smells pretty good.

That smells a little bit dippery, but only more and and our story kind of helped trigger some of that uh for our community, for our neighbors, um, for some of our friends who some would still to this day like, yeah, I don't really subscribe to that. Uh but they were impacted by that in ways that who knows how God will work in their life now or later or someday when if if they bump into their own cancer story and Give me a call again. I I don't know.

Uh but they're clearly at the time and even since, as you sort of mentioned, like if you think God's hand is at work in orchestrating not not not causing but orchestrating all of these uh relational webs um that circumstances are just secondary, right? So the circumstance of cancer was I think secondary, but I think what he was really getting my attention In that moment was like, all right, uh, who is Lord of your life or what is your top priority in your uh not only in your checkbook, but really in your calendar? And that's what I had to wrestle through because when I came back to work, I'm like, all right, let me kind of get my counter back in in motion.

And you know to to cut it into that story, I actually kind of lost my job. I think it was in a wholly different direction, not even six weeks back into uh work in that spring. So this is again spring of twenty eighteen.

I was like another record scratch of hey you lost your health now you're gonna lose your job uh and like then the white space was totally a problem like all right this is a full page turn this is not just uh knock cancer out and get back on a horde. So this is like a massive left tune in your life. Like, all right, process that.

And so we did. Thankfully we had a long time to process. And by the way, I As I as I tell people, when you go through processing, this is not like a one-day, one week, even one month processing.

Give it time, give it space, give yourself some grace that you're going to figure out so quickly. Uh the good news is I had I was given the gift of time to process. So it wasn't like you're gone, here's your two weeks notice.

Like I had a bit of a package that gave me some time to really think through what's next. Uh and and so I had a good about eighteen months to figure out, all right, before I kinda fast forward the tape to It's a next let's sit this moment and kind of broke it up into three six months chunks. So I took six months to do like I'm I'm not gonna do anything but for a process And wrestled through the fact that the very first thing I did, this is again like April 2018, very fresh off of the February scans, April 2018.

Already gave me a lot of grace. He said, I I think I need some windshield time in my car. And I got in the car and I drove.

All the way to Dallas. Stopped at a friend's house in Nashville for the night. Drove to Dallas.

One of my mentors lives there. It was very instrumental over the previous few years of my life. Spent a few days with him, golfed with him, just started a process by myself and with some like really close inner circle people.

And then I drove down, you know, from Dallas to Florida is a very natural drive from Cleveland to Dallas to Florida. And I so I basically had thirty days of kind of this bit of a sabbatical, if you will. Uh I kinda called this my midlife sabbatical, having these eighteen months, but it started a six month journey of just, all right God, you know, speak to me, pour to me Again, this is praying.

Uh uh, this is listening to books. Uh this is just kind of also unplugging. Just like, all right, I'm I'm unplugged now.

This is an acoustic version of gay that I I I I gotta uh just give this some some open open waters, if you will. And that that took six months, but in that time, in in this Be careful what you pray for because God, would you speak to me? Would you kind of open up uh a next next sort of thing?

And uh I don't know if it felt very clear to me like it was time not for just a new vocation, but a new location. I said Cordia. I wonder if God's like getting us ready to move.

Like I wonder if he's asking us to move and I just said Dallas. I was just in Dallas. Like wonder if he's asking us to move to Dallas.

I named it. And like she immediately starts crying.

Lisa:
And I'm like, You just upheavaled her world.

Jay:
She told me now, wait, wait, all these years later, uh, she was crying out because she didn't want to move, but because he also knew the gado was telling us to move, like calling us to move. He moved a lot growing up. Uh, and so we've been in Cleveland for over twenty years at this point, or about twenty years, and she always wondered like why why have I been here so long? Should we always ready for the net, but we got so entrenched in our community and work and church that uh we just never considered moving. Why would we? Uh we were so

Lisa:
It's really outside of our comfort zone to even think of that. And you had just been through a lot of upheaval with your health, your work, and then all of a sudden it's like wait, that's a whole nother like isn't that I think it's one of the top Stresses like moving. We just helped mom, your mom move out of her house.

Like I saw that roll eyes. It is. But you know, those things, it is really out there as one of I think of That's like the top three or four stresses.

Right.

Jay:
And especially if you don't uh if you don't even know the where. Like we we didn't have And this was something that a lot of our not not only friends but family um wrestled with at times. Like we we uh we didn't move for a job or start considering moving for it.

Like Sort of. Like are you oh you guys are moving? That's great.

Did you get a new job someplace? Uh and I'll I'll get to that part of the story, I guess. Not really.

No, like we God's calling us This very very much feels like uh a bit of a an exodus moment for us. Um not not that we were in slavery in Cleveland.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Jay:
And this was really important. I had somebody speak into this at church and they came over from Africa of all places. And it wasn't speaking in front of our total church.

They spoke in front of staff and elders for a moment. They talk about this m transitional phase that they were going through and they were trying to encourage us, moving from a land of not enough, which was Egypt. To a land of just enough, which was, you know, the wilderness, manna from heaven, to a land of more than enough, which was the promised land.

And that was very much the process we were in. Uh I wouldn't say we were in a land about enough, but we were in a land of just enough. It was fine.

It was great. Uh but God did something for us that was you know more than enough in a different so anyways, it it just started like, hey, maybe God's uh calling us to move

Lisa:
And uh I I do want to highlight too that it is amazing that this is your journey, but of course it's also your spouse's journey and your children's journey, but the fact that when you brought it up to your wife She already God was already doing something in her heart and then the two of you together. You know, I love seeing how God does that. You know, that this is in your heart and mine. Right. Exactly.

Jay:
Maybe what's most helpful is like our just our tenant our antennas were up, right? Because often like our heads are down and we're so busy doing what we're doing and like take pride in our full calendars, but like if our heads are down Uh we kind of miss sometimes not only the bigger point, but sometimes we miss the point altogether because we're so busy with ourselves and our lives.

Lisa:
But if our antagonism is Uh right. I the uh about the antenna, you know, it's interesting because I think you even referred to walking through cancer. Uh so much of the time it can be such a dark place and a desert.

I think those are some of the words you used. And but then when you have your antenna up to see, okay, God, what's going on? Yeah.

What's coming our way? I really I I like that. It makes it a different journey.

It's still hard.

Jay:
Oh no doubt. It's I mean hard, not fun, painful, all that. But lonely is I I probably say that too.

Lisa:
It could be very lonely. Um what part of it? How so

Jay:
Well, you get very isolated and I kind of had to again like going through not only uh not having a spleen, but then going through chemo, like you're not like we could we didn't go to church for six months. Like you're not supposed to address the church uh through a video kind of giving them an update on myself or on the church. It's like, hey, it's fair.

I mean it it it's uh you can just be lonely. is isolating e even with m uh my parents at the time like I I felt bad but like hey I we can we can't see you as much and that was very tough maybe for my my mom. uh to not be there in like in in our orbit because like we had to really compact it a little bit.

So it was just the four of us uh and neighbors and so forth. And and here's another practical thing. We we had uh wonderful neighbors but there's there are a lot of people that say hey just let me know if I can help in any way.

Like that actu I I I I appreciate the sentiment, but it's not helpful. So if you're to ever like offer somebody who's going through this help, don't ask, just do. And so is the neighbors who just did that just showed up with like meals every Sunday or like they would just like take our kids places.

Like they didn't ask, do you need help? They just provided help. Uh and that one is way more powerful.

And again, you can show up in somebody's life by just doing versus asking. Um, hey, let me let me take the kids for the afternoon. Hey, let me, you know, yeah, here's some Uber Eats cards or whatever it may be, just kind of like help with meals are meals are probably the most tangible way to help.

Make a meal, bring a meal, uh give them gift cards. But again, it you don't want to put you know extra work on a family going through it. You want to make it easy for them so they don't have to think about the daily necessities of life.

Maybe just strove and paid a water bill. I don't wonder it may be. They're like, how can you show up in a way where you don't ask, you just do?

Anyway, this is a bit of a sidebar comment. Because those who did uh made a pretty big impact in our lines and e kinda know pretty quickly who kind of your eat uh you know reliable people are

Lisa:
You know, Jay, I you it may be little sidebar, but that's actually that was one of my questions for you of what would you tell someone on the outside, how to what would you encourage them to do of how can you help? And I when you just said that I couldn't help but think if I had a friend reach out when literally it was just a couple of days after my mom died. I'm sitting in the middle of my bed.

Our family are different places, like with other family or one still wanted to go back to school um for the end of year stuff. And then um I I think Rick was helping on getting like the photos together for, you know, PowerPoint of mom's life and all. But I'm sitting in the middle of the bed in my pajamas still trying to write my mom's obituary.

And I had a friend text me and say, what what can I do? And I actually was like, I just want my favorite sonic drink right now that would just mean the world and she came over And at the same time she did a load of dishes, folded a load of laundry, maybe even started other laundry. And and but sometimes that's a pride thing I feel like too for us that we have to be willing to let someone in at that time I had no headspace for you know the dishes were piling up, the laundry, and we still have a full running family, but uh totally hit with grief So I love that you gave that tangible thing of just do and just uh there are times I don't know what to do for someone and I literally am like God, what is something I could do?

So I like that takeaway of and are there any are any other things you would encourage someone to do?

Jay:
Don't be afraid to ask either on the other side of that.

Lisa:
Right. Right, right.

Jay:
Hey, I need I need some help or or just be being available. um being present without being like uh hovering. But like again if it's lonely or if it's like middle of the night sort of stuff, like that that's where like how can I uh that's where like handwritten notes probably make a big impact.

Uh or um playing some of your words with friends at you know at odd hours. I don't know. It could be something really small, but just uh acknowledging something I I see you or I'm I'm here, I'm I'm for you.

Uh you want that to be felt. Uh but while that's uh helpful horizontally and relationally in that way, doing that vertically, like again, antennas up, like out like are you there? Uh are you paying attention?

But like as as as we prayed those tough prayers of honest ones, uh I I'm at least you did with me, I I I think you will answer those. And again, you said it earlier. You answered it in a different way.

And that this is um I I I only found it maybe, you know, a year or two after again, going through this big long eighteen month journey. I found uh prayer log Uh I had I I met with another uh old mentor of ours, this is an Steve French Connect way back in the day, where I he he connected with me in 2012. in Cleveland, doing a leadership program.

And I uh he encouraged me to kind of write down a bunch of different things that I was looking for, primarily through career, just like life goals. And I was I was way too busy even in 2012 Like write 'em down. Like he's like, what what's one thing you'd like to come off your plate that you shouldn't have on your plate?

Or conversely, if you can only have one thing on your plate, what's one thing? So like those bookends were helpful, but as he said, hey, write 'em down then like everything in between, what are some things you'd like to see God do in your life and i s I started writing down a list of like 10, 12, 15 different things. Like I had a hard time getting home at dinner at five o'clock even, let alone before 15 of my kids reading.

when they were five. Um so like I want to have dinner with my kids, you know, three times a week. I mean it's just like very practical things.

I like to you know have date nights with my wife or like all of it kind of boiled back into like I wish I had more time. It was kind of the summary like I w I wish I could reprioritize my time or just kind of have a cleaner slate so that I can do the things that actually matter me a bit more. And it and it took almost a decade for God to answer that in a totally different way.

I'm like, all right, I'll answer those, but like uh you're gonna lose your health, you're gonna lose your job, and you're gonna move. And everything's gonna flip on its head and lo and behold, like I have all the time in the world now. It's it's a different like I'll fill maybe some of those gaps, but like Uh boy, how fruitful has it been that God has uh delivered on almost.

I mean, if I showed you the list, I probably should have it up right now. If I showed you the list of like 10 things. I don't want to say like nine of them like boom, boom, boom, boom.

If all of an answered, but I didn't think about it for eight, nine, ten years until I reflected back. And this is why I think it's good having things on paper. Huh.

Look how faithful God was in a radically difficult time, uh, in an unexpected way. That was a massive left turn. But what I also like to say is like, but I'm here and I look back in the river here and it's a straight line of here.

It was zigzags all the way through it. And so if you're in the mess right now and it feels like zigzags, give it some time and when you look back. I think God was pretty faithful to get me to the exact moment where I needed to be, where I should be.

And actually it's more of a straight line looking backwards than the zigzags when you're in the midst of it. So uh that that's always been clarifying to me and reflection, but it it often isn't in the moment.

Lisa:
Jay, you know, I can't help but think uh there are a lot of people in life, whether it's a uh a guy, uh uh a gal, you know, male or female, who are just uh doing all the things. Like go, go, go, doing the checklist of life, um, like you were, you know, with work and um doing things in church, family, all the things. But you had that list, the things that really do matter to us.

You know, and and how many times have we heard when, you know, one day when people are gone at the end of their life, they don't say, oh, I wish I'd spent more time at work. Usually it's usually I'd, you know, wand is wish I'd spent more time with family or whatever. And what would you tell someone now who's like, go, go, go.

I don't even have time to Think about this, Jay. Like that there's too much going on. And you know, d God doesn't always allow something like cancer Sometimes there are other things.

For me it was honestly go go go and then I was sidelin when I was expecting my children. I I had no idea pregnancy would be that rough, you know, for me. But I had that was kind of my quiet like where I literally had time to process things with God and really pray for my child at that moment.

So I believe I would have prayed for them, you know, w in our busy life or whatever. But um in the middle of the busy, what do you tell that person who's like, I don't even have time to think about what's important to me.

Jay:
Well, y you either can do it by choice or it'll sometimes happen through crisis. And more often than not, it's crisis like, oh gosh, now what do I do? I'm in the thick of it now.

Um, and then we kind of like, you know, lift up our hands or you know, yield. Okay, I submit, I submit, but it it's much better to do it by choice. And by choice, I mean it Uh, how do we carve out margin in our life very purposefully, even in our calendar?

It could be a very practical. I need two hours every Friday of white space. Um or I need to make sure I have that, you know, whether it's date and night or maybe it's date breakfast with my spouse uh every week or every two weeks, or that we have some getaway time or I have some getaway time, or I just like carve it out like very practically in your calendar.

And the the hard thing is like we often like to fill it. These days I fill it with sports cards. It's like really fun for me.

But like uh and a good example is like sometimes we get in a car, quick, blast at the radio, so that it kind of drowns out. minor thoughts. I I I really do think sometimes we pulled through ourselves to like keep it on at all times, keep that, you know, particularly the digital stuff on at all times, so it drowns out the depths of our soul.

Uh we we need to be able to turn it off at times, really put our phones away, digital detox, whatever it may be, so that we can uh not just listen to ourselves, but listen to God. God, what what do you have for me today?

Lisa:
What do you have for me this year?

Jay:
What do you have as kind of a future direction that I might I may not be paying attention to because I'm so dang busy with me and my priorities and we're like You know, even when we get uptight or upset, uh I've often learned that the uh what's really going on is you know what's wrong here? I'm not getting my way. Uh and therefore it kind of just takes us, you know, take us out of commission.

There's nothing more than the enemy would want to take us out of commission because we're feisty about not getting our way or we're just selfish people, right? Like this very natural default mode. And and we just like to fill it like we just like to fill it all up with stuff Uh literally like you have stuff, we'll go buy stuff, we'll fill it up with our calendar, just like fill it, fill it, fill it.

I don't think that's that's what God calls us to do uh to seek him first. Uh in like everything else, then it kind of falls you know second to that. And I think we can get that that priority right first, uh, and then the priority of our people in our life, because the people that are in our life are the point.

I learned that the hard way. Like it, you know, no, you need to slow down and uh be available. One thing that my dad who worked at home for uh you know six years his whole life, he was a uh self-employed photographer, worked from home.

This is the greatest gift to us. I I never really knew any different because like my dad was working in the dark room in the studio, but he was always hope. And like when I thought about it as this kind of you know vocational transition happened, like would it be great to work from home.

Again, pre-COVID environment, I it was very strange to say, I I think that's what I want to do is work from home. But uh as I started to scout out and start to talk to people, Uh I actually thought maybe maybe this has been enough instability in rough life, maybe God's calling me to join a business uh versus starting something on my own, which I really had kind of decided like to start something of my own, lay my own chingle and be my own man, work from home Um and and even like the the location ended being part of the story too, right? So as we prayed through wasn't it wasn't Dallas, clearly, we actually prayed through Florida first too, and even started to look So as you pray on one side, we look practically in the other, all right, what schools and what area would what could it look like and nothing was happening.

It was very clearly, well, it ain't Dallas and Florida. Are we supposed to move? But then we had we had some loving friends at church Uh very strange.

Like literally get in our face that you need to move to Atlanta. Like like literally in our face, you need to move to Atlanta because they'd lived here before and uh suggested and we we need we also need to get further south I think for both of our health my my health and and Courtney's health to just get get more sun. It wasn't about the cold it was more about So we started scouting south and we started playing through a triangle, even though Atlanta was first alphabetically or otherwise, to Atlanta, Nashville and and uh and Charlotte.

So Southeast was kinda close enough up to the Midwest. Uh Dallas was too far, Florida was too hot, or whatever. It just wouldn't work.

And we had friends literally on our face. And again, God can use people in your life. We're like we're sort of friends with them, but like not super close with them.

And they were like, Atlanta. God must be wanting us to so I I had some time and I started coming down to it and uh scout it out, meet some people. Again, I asked E Fred Wall, straighten it out.

Three's Connection from 2012 to now 2018. Hey, you know anybody in Atlanta IX Gates No? If you know that I should get to know.

And he gave me like ten people And like seven of them were like, yeah, I'll meet with you uh right away. So I started sitting down with seven different businessmen around town. I wanted to learn about the town, but learn about the opportunities.

Here's kind of what I'm thinking I'd like to do. And uh laying my own shingle and doing some advisory work. Uh and one of them I kind of said fairly especially with like the age my kids were at, and he had done this journey, but he's like, man, if my kids are that age, I don't think that would have been a smart thing for me to do.

Uh to to um start my own business or to be kind of like out there on an island when like he's like your boy probably needs more stability at this point I I came back from that trip like darn it I had to join a business and started making phone calls of maybe two or three people that um I could join their company. And uh and one of them, you know, answered the call. We started having this conversation like Atlanta, interesting, because again we we'd started the Scout around Atlanta.

We didn't committed to it yet. That was kind of in the second six months of kind of committing to uh Atlanta within that third, you know, six months of preparing for the move. So again, six months of praying, no idea.

All right, maybe we're gonna move, maybe it's a land, let's scout it out for six months, and then six months to actually do the move, which we did in in middle of of twenty nineteen. Um all that being said is w when this guy said uh join a business, or I heard I heard join a business. He didn't tell me you shouldn't do this.

Uh then I called I called somebody, he's like, interesting, Atlanta, we were just thinking about building a little hub in Atlanta. Maybe it's a good fit for you. It just it just opened the door.

It didn't it didn't like hey, I want you to uh lodge in Atlanta office for me. It just it started a conversation with a guy in Arkansas of all places.

Lisa:
Uh that um

Jay:
that it took us six months to kinda do a dance to figure out at the end of that. I thought I might join his company. Because they kind of needed, you know, a couple of different and and he says, Hey, would you Would you be my advisor, strangely enough, you have to use like you have to use that word?

Would you be my advisor outside but kind of inside my company? And so it gave me kind of the the job I needed, but without being employed, I was a consultant, if you will, uh uh uh ten ninety nine that I was able to delete my own shingle but have the stability of kind of a job but doing it remotely here in Atlanta pre-COVID I was doing all of it via Zoom or even Zoom was a thing it felt like And I fly down to, you know, Arkansas every order d helping with the offsites. But it was he asked me to do two or three things as an advisor and it turned into like ten other things over the next couple of years and it built a very a very fruitful relationship between uh me and him and and that company and it it actually proved the case like I think what I'm doing with him I could do with other companies too.

And it just started vocationally coming to clarity as I then brought in a business partner that uh I worked with for 20 years in the first chapter. And now he and I do that type of advisory work for small business owners. Uh and we've done it for maybe 15 or 20 of them over the last four or five years.

Um is that that became clarified just vocationally, but it became much more about uh uh a a real destination or a destiny of of going through all that into a place, not just uh um you know what I was gonna do. So when people said, oh you're moving for a job

Lisa:
Sort of. Sort of right.

Jay:
Uh got a new job. It's a little bit different. And what I probably could have done from anywhere, and that's part for our Cleveland friends of here, I probably could have done this from anywhere, but We literally moved our family in a pretty big hefty mood south that uh that you know here we are, uh 2025.

Um my kids uh have gone through High school here, my son's already in college and like I I'm convinced their trajectory of their life is wildly different because of the move. Not not silly in a Better way, I maybe a better way, I think so, but it's definitely different. Their life would have been totally different.

I don't know what it would have looked like. But I think for their benefit, and really, I I wanted to show But I kind of learned through all this process. I wanted to show my kids and into myself and Courtney what faithfulness and then obedience looks like.

in in real life. So like God was calling us very clearly he was calling us and rooting us out of something into something new. One of my favorite books back here called Necessary Endings.

It's uh Henry Cloud for like new things to begin, old things need to end. Uh old things need to kind of you have to close a chapter for a new chapter to begin. And sometimes we really hold on to things for too long.

Uh even in the business world, as they talk with business owners, like they're holding on to something too long. Usually it's people, but often it's a product or service. No, no, no, we'll figure it out.

It'll work. And sometimes we're just holding on to too long like this with a closed fist versus like need we should be more open and uh currying that pain. And so when we we kind of made that, you know, massive shift And try to show my kids like this is what faithfulness and obedience looks like.

So we if we had not, that probably would have been a definition of disobedience. Like, no, no, no. I got this figured out back and I'm gonna storm up a different hill or the same hill back. We lived for 20 years.

So uh that that's just kind of how our story inflected is a massive inflection. Again, time is kind of the common denominator through it all. uh leading up to through treatment, post treatment, and then kind of this 18 month window of really kind of figuring out what's what does the next chapter look like.

And now time is like Uh it's a total gift. Like I uh God has blessed us with time more than anything else as a family. Uh uh and I if I've kind of needed at times for myself, my health, or inner health, or just being available for my kids that I work from home and I'm like the chef now of the house.

Like, Dad, what are what are we having for for breakfast, lunch, and dinner? Can you make them all uh everything right now? So that that's the That's kind of the full scope of the journey that unfolds.

Lisa:
Well, you know, thank you for touching on so much of that because there was a lot of unknown and uncertain that hit you all at once. It was cancer and then right after that, boom, losing a job, and then trying to sort out some path ahead. And uh I really appreciate also where you were talking about we want to do it my way.

A lot of times I'll even talk about, you know, the word sin in the Bible of that middle letter I, because we want to do things my way. um do it Lisa's way, do it Jay's way, and uh but God's way really does not have the consequences that our way has what and even with what you've been talking about, one of the consequences of choosing to do life our way sometimes is our most important people getting shoved to the side more. And uh so I j just kind of thinking about this with you know, your journey.

There is one last question uh that I wanted to touch on. What would you tell someone who's walking through this? There's so many takeaways for uh from what just hearing your story, uh you you know where you found your hope through all of this.

Um uh people you guys praying together as a couple, people praying for you. Um But what would you tell someone walking through this? This is not easy.

Like I remember even you talking about at the time there was one morning even going through treatment where I think you got there and you threw up like two times and that was hard for your wife and even the nurses seemed a little surprised and you quoted a movie about what was it? Sorry, I threw up well I'm gonna say threw up. Sorry I threw up.

If I didn't have puke breath, I'd kiss you. You said to your wife and like even the humor in that moment, like that obviously was something that played into this But what would you tell someone? There are rough moments during this and it does seem dark and I know there there are so many things that you talked about at the time.

Like I remember you talked about One verse from the Bible in in the book of John of in this world Jesus promised in this world you will have trouble But take heart, I've overcome the world. And that was an encouragement to you at that time. But I just anything else you would tell someone right now walking through this or seeing a loved one walk through this.

Jay:
Yeah. Um Yeah, my uh my dad had a friend going through cancer who uh ultimately passed away from cancer, but while while she was alive, she made these bookmarks that said, I choose joy on them. But it is a bit of a choice of how you handle uh a crappy diagnosis and a crappy scenario.

Like it's not fun, it is painful. But there's a choice in there and joy is not happiness. Joy is a choice.

Happiness is a bit fleeting and circumstantial and like and we always say, hey, I just want my kids to be happy. And like that's that's not really what I want my kids. I want my kids to learn how to be content and be joyful no matter the circumstances around them.

And so uh and being able to choose that and like all right I'm I'm gonna kind of be laser focused uh uh uh the choice of joy, but really this open hand uh mentality of like I the more I try to grip it and try to control the outcomes or you know uh steer it in a direction. Like we we just don't know which direction may go, good or bad. Uh or may just be kind of A thorn in the flesh for a long time.

This is something that Cordy's battled with in just a different way, not cancer, but she said a thorn in her f flesh, literally and figuratively for over a decade. And God, she prays all the time, God, would you take it away from me? And so far the inter in many cases been no, there's some days it's been much better, some days it's been has not been, but like I would say she's thriving uh over the last few years because she can still push through uh even in tough dark days because she knows she has a a uh a deeper hope a deeper connection not only uh horizontally with me and others and her kids And her friends, she's great friends here, uh, but but vertically with uh with God, who gives her this peace that surpasses understanding.

So like that's really what we want to pursue. God, would you give me peace? Would you show up today and like call my spirit?

Would you uh even if I like I I I don't even know if you're there, uh would you uh would you show up? Would your presence be felt even in the doctor's hands today? Would your presence show up in an encouraging word from a nurse?

Would your presence show up uh through a family member I've not talked to in ages and kind of like restore that somehow? maybe through this difficult circumstance that they may say, uh, maybe they make the first move like I've I've been a schmuck, I'm sorry. That like there's reconciliation, even if it's painful physically or painful emotionally in that scenario, like, hey, well God, would you just Would you show up today or sho show me show me your love in in tangible ways that uh that I know that you're there, that I know that I am loved, that I'm cared for.

Uh and that I'm not alone in this or that that that's not just all darkness. So would you show me your light, would your light radiate through others? Uh that then gives me, you know, energy, uh and hopefulness.

And again, that choice around pursuing joy. is uh it it's an important one because like is my life gonna be better because I got Jesus at my side where he says my yoke is easy and my burden is light Do we do we do we believe that? Do we think that or do we actually live that in a way that becomes practical?

Like all right, uh today was rough this round of treatment and again it was cumulative. By the end of treatment it's like I I I I can't look a finger. I'm I'm um Cash me out.

Um, but to stay like, you know, dialed in uh uh spiritually and then emotionally and then kind of let God kind of Do what he does physically as the great physician, like you know, I I I've been healed. Uh, but he's also giving me new life uh in more ways than one that like oh that's that's a whole new chapter that I never never saw come

Lisa:
Wow. That is powerful, just all of that. And I do want to throw in there too, you know, sometimes when we pray, like we touched on earlier.

we don't have the answer we want. We did lose your dad, you know, to cancer and at a later time after yours. And so we just we don't know.

But I love how just You talked about your hope, your anchor, choosing joy. Oh my goodness, what a powerful takeaway that really is with that. Well Jay, I just thank you so much for being here and just kinda walking through thriving in the mess of cancer, just all the All that goes on with that.

And then you had a lot more pile on to that and still choosing joy and creating space. That's another big takeaway. I feel like just that making time to process because we just can go go go sometimes.

And even if we're working multiple jobs or some just kind of some headspace, just creating carving out some place to process with all this but thank you so much really appreciate it and friend I hope you'll join me next time on Thrive in the Mess