The Empty Nest: Launching Your Young Adult Child | With Lisa & Special Guest, Her Husband Rick

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I'm excited you're here today. We are doing a deep dive looking at how to navigate as a parent that transition of when our children enter into young adulthood. Some people call it empty nests.

Some people it's dropping off your child at college or maybe your young adult is moving out into um another state or work m wherever they are. But really focusing on how can we navigate this as a parent. So it can bring all kinds of emotions and I'm Thrilled to have my husband Rick with me on this one because we've had to navigate this, but I will tell you, we are not experts with this.

We're experts on our story with with this, but it's always a work in progress too, because you bring up your children and there's varying degrees of uh emptying out nest. Uh I know even one of my brothers, uh his he has two children who are out of the nest now and I had mentioned to him, I said, you know what, I'm actually excited. It's a different dynamic But I'm excited for them for their youngest to get s they they automatically get more focused attention.

So And 'cause our daughter did. And even recently I said, you know, we got to travel with our daughter more, just with our um you know, with our uh other two our older two sons once they were off and it just Changes the dynamic when the oldest goes off or maybe your only goes off or then the next one, the next one, whatever it is for work. for college, for whatever.

And so we've had an emptying out nest over the years. And so um it's a new season. It's very different.

So jump in anytime, Brian, really.

Rick:
Thank you so much, Lisa, for having me on. It's really an honor. It's been exciting to see how this podcast has continued to grow and uh touch and influence lives as we talk about The messes in our lives and and certainly this whole journey of of of parenting into young adulthood uh has been, you know, it's it's it's got its own kind of excitement, ups and downs and some messes to it and we've been trying to sort that out and I You know, so where are our kids at now? We got uh twenty seven, twenty-four, and twenty-one.

Lisa:
So I mean we are all kind of in the twenties now and uh and all different dring degrees, like our youngest is in college and then The other two are working and so I and I will say with our children, it was a big thing because each of them went far off. Like we're talking states away. All three of them. So I don't know if that reflected on us or but they they we were excited that they were confident and I excited to step out into the world and do that. But that does kind of as apparent you kind of are like Sniff because they're so far and then you do have to kinda one of the things I was gonna bring up even is you do have to kinda change your finances a little bit too because We wanted to go to any family weekend there was and we usually had to fly uh or sometimes drive, but they were far, you know. So

Rick:
So we did not experience the the the privilege of in state tuition. Uh somebody else has to explain that to me because I have no idea what that is.

Lisa:
But uh no.

Rick:
So I mean it it you know, we we had the the youngest, right? So our daughter we uh we took to college uh a few years ago and uh she she chose a College out in the Southern California area, and you and I were real excited because this is just kind of a little bit of a moment for us because you know this is our last one now that we're dropping off at college, you know, and I remember growing up, you know, I used to watch the Super Bowl and there was always this commercial that would come on uh a day later and it said, you know, to the winning quarterback, Hey, now that you've won the Super Bowl, what are you going to do next? And they'd go, I'm going to Disney World, I'm going to Disneyland, right?

You know, I mean that was kind of like a big Big thing back in the day. And and so, you know, I I felt a little bit like, you know, hey, now that you have dropped off your final kid to college, what are you gonna do next? And what did you and I say?

Lisa:
We went to Disneyland.

Rick:
over the years. So what are you gonna do when your last kid gets dropped off to to college?

Lisa:
It just so happened it was right near where it's it was. It worked out very conveniently and so you and I were excited.

Rick:
I mean it was it was it was a big deal, you know, it was just kinda like, okay, so we're gonna high five a little bit. This is a little bit of a milestone moment within our culture. You know, that is kind of a thing.

You know, you you dropped off your last kid at college and you know, we kind of felt like this little newfound freedom, like, oh wow, you know, it's just just you and I now. What are we gonna do? So uh t tell me what happened when you saw Mickey Mouse.

Lisa:
Well, I actually I will say I you're having a lot of excitement with this. Like we did have a lot of fun with that. But we I I know some parents are like, yes, eighteen, uh, you're off our dime, you know, you're on your own, all this sort of thing.

For us, it still was That was hard, like to take our baby out to California and we're and dropping her off. But I loved the idea of a day at Disney. with my husband, so that was very fun.

But yes, when I saw Mickey, we have a picture of this actually where I said, Mickey, we just brought our daughter to college and we have an empty nest. I don't know, do you remember what Mickey did? He goes and he's like Oh my Yeah.

So and you know what? Mickey personified the feeling of millions of parents. And my heart too.

And I don't know why I felt compelled to tell Mickey Mouse that, but I it was that moment of the the emotion that goes with that and then a little bit of, you know, tearing but then we decided to have some fun. We didn't just sit in bed and cry that next morning even though you're like you know Well, I mean, you know, what do they say?

Rick:
You know, Disney's like what, this happiest place on earth, right? And so we're we're we're having a happy time. I mean it was.

It was a fun fun day and we're off and running and you know, I mean I know for me I can speak to my own emotion of that day. I was just And uh you know, we're like, all right, so uh our ki our boys are off They're doing well. Our daughter's safe at college and uh you know it was around two o'clock in the afternoon and we were just having a a great old time.

Lisa:
We saw a parade. I felt a little guilty because I think it's It's just that mother, mother gene. I don't know what it is, but anyway.

But uh just that um Should we really be having this much fun while our daughter is like having her first day of college? And it was rough. She called and we had found a table for lunch.

The parade was just about to go by, I think at some point. I don't know if that was that exact time but and I'm sitting there Not with a churro, but whatever. I know, it was the corn.

It was the corn on the cup. 'Cause I remember holding something and trying to hear her. And it had been a really rough day for her so far.

And so That's kinda emptiness, sure, but we're m I we kind of view we're always on call, you know. I'm not a doctor, but I am You know, always on call. It was just like all of a sudden like hmm.

Rick:
But I mean to me it was kind of a metaphor of just kind of what this whole journey's been like for us, you know. It's like, you know, we we have, you know, on one hand, kind of there's a joy and excitement, like kind of there's a new season, uh, and then at the same time there's a reality that, wow, uh our kids still need us. There is something.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Rick:
There's a role for us to play. So I I'm excited about having this conversation because I do believe that as we kind of think about, you know, what what is our role as parents? you know, I do believe at the end of the day we wanna, you know, see our kids uh grow and thrive as young adults.

And and of course I think every parent wants to see that happen. And And uh this is a journey for us. So I'm I'm hoping in our time uh together that as as we share through some of our wins and maybe even some of our losses, that maybe Folks who are watching this now who are listening can can can take away, you know, oh okay, so there's some ideas that that might encourage me.

So I think that's what I hope that happens.

Lisa:
I'm not sitting there by the phone, like waiting, like letting it control our lives. But we are our child's cheerleader. We take that pretty seriously of encouraging them.

because we live in a world where there's not a lot of encouragement and so to be able to be that person and I think of okay, well what does a cheerleader do? That doesn't mean every day we have our, you know, pom poms and you know, megaphone or bullhorn or whatever and uh short skirts. But we do uh w when there's a play that's made on the field that's good, what do they do?

There's like, yay, keep going. when they fumble, they're still gonna say, you know, uh what a and I'm not gonna get the cheers right, but sometimes they'll say, push 'em back, push 'em back, way back, you know. And so whether it's They've had a great success on the field or not great success where that cheerleader.

So that's where uh you know that day even with our daughter, it's the resiliency that we see grow in our child. Boy, but I tell ya Uh uh there are days that even with their children in their twenties, and I'm sure my parents felt this way. I'm sure every parent feels in a some way, you know, when they're little And we had carpeting in our living room at that point in time.

They're crawling and playing. And you have all the outlet plugs and the outlets and you have the things on the kitchen cabinet doors so they can't hurt themselves with things and stuff. And there is sometimes that you wish Oh, and we also had the top of the stairs barricaded off so they wouldn't go flying down the stairs.

And there are times you kinda wish, wow, I wish I could protect my child's heart. from all the things. You know, I and back then it was maybe crawling across a Lego or a uh well not when they were little little but i you know, you're trying to protect them from the boo boos and the hurts of life at that point in time.

And try to just let them know, hey, you uh you love them. They they're surrounded by that love and a safe place. And I know not everyone grows up with that either, but that was what we had really prayed we would have.

And then as parents, you also I say this so much of um you can do what God leads you to do is a parent, but then you pray that God will fill in the gaps because we have so many gaps. No one is perfect. There's no perfect person, no perfect parent.

And It so we prayed a lot that God would fill in where we were not uh we're not gonna fill every need in our child's heart. And boy, uh being a parent. Every child is different too.

So it we have three children and everyone is uniquely them. So even all the different things don't uh you know, work, you know, or you d you just have to really seek how to connect with each child or how to discipline each child those kinds of things, you know. So, but we can't always keep our child in that living room with all the safety devices and all, but we can encourage them.

And they develop that um they have that confidence to go out into the world and just develop resiliency and uh they tackle their own problems, but we're in the background and can cheer them on.

Rick:
Absolutely this. I I I I love what you're saying on that. I do I think that our culture um c makes a real big deal of kind of this these milestones that move from, you know kind of childhood into adulthood, you know, and and so we've talked, you know, some about this, whether it's, you know, dropping them off at college or maybe there's a graduation or maybe they're finishing college or maybe, you know.

There's something about age eighteen, age twenty two, or like, you know, our culture goes, Hey, congratulations, mom and dad. You got 'em to this point. Your job's done.

You're you're a winner, and uh, you know, it's their job to take it from here. And yeah d to to a degree there's some some some truth to that, but I I do think our culture's a little overblown, this idea of empty nest, congratulations, mom and dad, you're done now. And I just this metaphor of this empty nest I think we've kind of come to symbolize like, you know this big giant finish line for mom and dad and I I d I just don't quite see it quite like that.

I mean, yeah, there's there's seasons of parenting In fact, um I want to make this real clear that, you know, as as uh uh we have people watching, uh uh consuming this, viewing this. This is not just for people who have kids in their twenties. This is for for really parents of even younger kids because, you know, empty nest doesn't start at age eighteen, doesn't start at age twenty two.

This is something that you've gotta be preparing and thinking about way before that. And uh I I like how our pastor uh really leans into this idea of control and influence. And uh he points us out that you know, when you have your child, this newborn, this baby, this toddler in these early child years, you as a parent have a lot of control at that point.

You know, hey son, daughter, do this, don't do this. Yeah. And and we have this great ability to kind of have our hands around And you know, control as much as we possibly can.

The challenge is that they're gonna grow up at a certain age and you no longer have that control. You no longer can just, you know, point your finger and command and say, do this, don't do that. They're gonna need to at certain point have their own buy in, their own desire to say I choose this, not mom and dad choose this actually begins we felt like that began even sooner.

Lisa:
It really does while they were still in our own home, you know, if if a mistake is going to be made with something or uh varying degrees of, you know U honestly, uh some parents I think probably thought we were not too smart because uh one area we did not um install like parental filters on their phones. We want we're like we're not always going to be there. We're not going to be the person checking their phone or whatever.

We wanted to instill in them certain I s you know, just i they need to decide what do I want to let into my heart and life. And so um, you know, we would talk about like Proverbs uh twenty-four eleven, you know, of guard your heart for it's the wellspring of life. What are we letting in?

And our kids were a little grossed out because I would talk about we do have a well. And I was like, Well what if we let our water from like washing our hands, you know, go out there and they're like, Would I'm like, Would you wanna drink it. And it's like, uh and then well what about if our shower water and bathtub water ends it?

Well then you're kinda like, do I really want to drink that? Like we're always like that nice, clean, fresh glass of water, you know? And then um w what if we uh when we flushed our you know, the toilet, what if that went in there?

Our daughter was like, Ew, mommy and I said, But that's w what are we choosing to let into our heart and life, you know? Uh whatever it is, musically uh for me I have to say I'm not gonna watch so much news on some things because there's so much sadness in the world and uh I just can't um i it drags me down. And so that's where I have to say, you know what, I I can't do that.

And so I intentionally when I want to see new I and I'm not saying live like you know, not knowing things ignorantly, but I will intentionally seek to read or watch news when I choose to. But but there are certain things everyone has to know what are we putting into our heart and life? Because when we were growing up, like not to sound like ancient dinosaurs but um we didn't have twenty four seven incoming.

I I was talking with our children recently about how the twenty four seven news cycle There's not enough going on in the world to talk twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred you know, days so so It there ends up being a lot of idle chatter, I feel like, and that to come into our minds and hearts and lives. That's a lot, you know. So are we guarding our heart saying Do I really need to see all the like I can learn the news, I can see certain things within a short amount of time and then back off.

And now I you know, my dad would come home and what watch the five o'clock news You know, read his newspaper and then there was a cap on it. Pretty much like you could watch news in the morning or late at night too, but um But it's just so different now and there's so much with the internet and different things, which is fantastic. We can find a a lot of information, but it just can be a lot.

So as far as like even our children with their phones and all just instilling a grid of, you know, what are you putting into your heart and life? 'Cause that's their choice, honestly. We're not there to do that every day and we weren't there doing that then.

Now I'm not saying that's up to every parent to choose that. But that's just kind of one example. So different degrees controlled lessons along the way.

And then can you touch on the influence part?

Rick:
Well, yeah, I mean, exactly, 'cause I want my kids to uh i really you know, one of the things you and I did we tried to d answer a lot of the why questions, you know, because at the end of the day on that journey from control to influence, i your goal as a parent is to help them to own it. So for them to choose, all right, this is why we do certain things. This is the the the the reason behind.

It's not just because you told me to do it. The trust and respect that they they that our kids have and us as their authority figures, at a certain point they realize, oh, I get to make kind of some of my own decisions now and I get to kind of realize, you know, what do I want And in and you know uh w w when is what's the dividing line between control and influence? I mean at a certain point it's all influence, right?

And and certainly as we get into these young adult years where we're talking about kind of this empty nest phase At that point it's all influence. It's like, you know, what what have you done to help your kids own it in a way that they can trust? And I've kinda got in my own head kind of about twelve years old, maybe, is a is a pretty critical time as they kind of move into their teen years.

Uh if if If you haven't spent those early childhood years really pouring in and really helping them develop their own sense of confidence, their own sense of why we choose to do things and and values that they say these are my values, not mom and dad's values. I think if you don't have that by the age of twelve ish, give or take There's a good chance that you might be really fighting with them for a lot of years to come, into those teen years, and then definitely into the adult years. And and if you've lost influence at that point.

It's sometimes it's really hard to to to get that back. Not that you can't. I mean, obviously God can redeem any heart at any point in time if we want to go down that direction, but Uh uh as much preventative you can do on the front end to help them really own this is kind of what I like to say.

Lisa:
And really just Uh so they I I think of how my dad I think there was a submarine years ago, the USS Thresher, that imploded and I think it went too deep.

Rick:
The pressure on the outside became greater than the pressure on the inside and yeah, it imploded.

Lisa:
Yeah, and with that, uh that's the goal I think of every parent. We don't want our our child as a child or young adult to implode, whether it's that call at Disneyland of this is a really rough day, they're not gonna implode. And that is sometimes you just need an encouraging word or comment or just send I love you, I hear you, whatever, and or I agree with what your plan is.

And um so that helps get the pressure on the inside where they can withstand the pressure on the outside. And there's a whole lot of pressure in our world right now with all kinds of things, with decisions and and and different things. So I love that.

And then with um I I along with influence, I think we also have to touch on sometimes like we we want to be very careful we're not overstepping with saying things. You and I kinda see think a little differently sometimes. I might sometimes feel like, you know, I'm their mom.

I feel like I should probably say this, but I I'm going to say it, but I'm gonna I'm I don't ever say to do it my way because They're on their own, they're a young adult, you know, and I can express something like a concern, but they do that with me too also and I do respect my children's thoughts and input. And so now we're at an an age too where these are people who I am closer to than anyone else in the world. And so Do they trust us?

Do I trust them? You know, and so so sometimes um, you know, we might enter into something and say, you know, we might be a little concerned about that. Um, but We also um we also are supportive.

We we love our children, we're there for them and encouraging them. So it depends also. Some people say don't say anything you know, when uh uh so there there's just kind of a kind of a mix, you know.

It's their own it's their own life. It is. And so I just kinda want to touch on that.

Do you have any thoughts on the other thing?

Rick:
First of all, at the end of the day, uh as young adult um children, it's their decision.

Lisa:
Right.

Rick:
And and I want my kids to know at the end of the day that Uh I will offer some input from time to time, not on everything, and you gotta choose your battles, I think, as parents very carefully. Because if you push too hard on too many You push them away. You push them away and they'll tune you out completely.

Lisa:
So well and there's all these broken relationships right now that we hear of of just not even talking with parents. And I do understand there are some boundaries that some people need to have in life. There's been abusive situations or neglect and things and that's really hard.

Yes, there can be forgiveness and and things in that and but sometimes there also need to be just some boundaries to protect yourself and your family that you have now. But as far as as far as we can, we want to not totally push our child away and say, you know what, this is what my parents think. I know this is what they're gonna think.

But also we need to have open communication. We'd like I don't want them to assume this is what mom and dad will think. Sometimes we surprise them by what we say.

Like this is not what I thought mom and dad would say. But then the the same way too. I don't want to yeah, keeping but even with us, like, I don't want to assume they're thinking of certain things.

So that's all just open communication. Which I actually also want to talk on, but I I didn't know if you had other thoughts on that.

Rick:
I mean I I I do think at the end of the day I want my kids to know that I do trust them and I'll uh I'll say often I'm proud of you. I want them to know that I believe in you. Um I Uh you know, we we do have to allow for them to m sometimes make some decisions that might cause them to fall flat on their face. And that's really tough as parents, right?

Lisa:
I mean you know we have parents who did that with us too. Not bad, but we kinda have to

Rick:
Well and that's a big point. That that adversity sometimes is needed for us to be able to grow. This is how God works in our hearts and lives, is that He allows bad things to happen sometimes so that we will grow.

Romans, that that when you have suffering, consider it joy, you know, and there's perseverance and character that develop out of those hard situations. But I know as parents, uh, especially in our culture today, We j we hate to see our kids suffer. We hate to see them have to go through hard times and through adversity.

Lisa:
I want those outlet plugs. I know metaphorical outfit lift

Rick:
Plugs for everything in life.

Lisa:
My brother was getting married. We were at the rehearsal dinner. People were singing a hymn, a beautiful song.

Rick:
We have this all on video.

Lisa:
Yes, and I think you're playing it is. It's ends in a total transaction. Right at the end of the video.

You're playing, I think, the accompaniment for it at the piano. And I am uh I have uh uh I think there were like four and um Maybe a year and a half? Uh and two boys at that point.

So I am videoing, panning across the room, this beautiful calm singing. And then I go down to on camera you see my sons and our you know, eighteen months two year old is about to stick a fork in the outlet right there. Total video like goes total shaking and Yeah, so you know when you think of the outlet plugs, but we can always do that.

Now that would not have d that's control. And uh one thing I want to do, I kinda want to get into like what are what are some encouraging things too? Um, but one thing that I learned, I'm not always the best kind of seeing myself at like what uh why I uh like certain things in me, but one thing I learned I think in the past few years through this more of an empty nest season.

And even with you, uh we realized it more in our marriage and we've been married like a bajillion years. So um the uh is presence and I don't mean like presence with the bow on top but but presence with people being there and how much that meant to me I never put a finger on it that way of uh because when our children come home from college and stuff like parents I I don't wanna have like a big lineup for them. I would come home from college and I was exhausted.

I I literally fell af asleep face down in the living room. Um you know, just uh with a blanket and pillow, you know, when I w came home on my first fall break even and so I d we don't over schedule, but we never really we didn't want to do that when they were younger anyway. But especially when they come home We want to give them space.

We don't know where they're coming from exactly. Even if we've communicated through the semester, you don't know exactly where your child's coming. at when they come home.

So we try to give some space for rest and then like some fun family time or whatever for them, you know So, um, but sometimes we just need to sleep and and eat, just have nutrition and and and just recover a little bit. But I was like, you know, I don't care. I just love that they're here.

And that they're near and that presence. And uh you know, you think of those sleepless nights, if someone m you know, is listening who has young children, all of those actions lead up to when your child goes away, that confidence, it's instilling that that value, that worth, which comes from how God has made us, uniquely us, but then any adult, a parent in our life, and I'm sorry for those who have not had a parent who have been like that because that is really rough um and leaves a lot of wounds and scars and I commend parents who are stepping out and seeking to be different than some of the trauma they walked through and even the fact that they're looking at being different is huge. They're making that mentality alone.

I I I I see young women and and young men who are like, it's gonna be different for my child and it is because they have seen it and they acknowledge it and they're they're making different choices. But all of that leads up to all that presence. Like you're with your child a lot when they're younger and Um, waking up with them and uh you know, feeding them the middle of the night feedings where you're just like exhausted and you can't even sleep and you know, you I uh you would then like usually change their diapers and then like they'd go back to sleep and all and but like All of that r it takes a different shape and form, of course, when they're a young adult.

And just being near and maybe quiet sometimes. We have a mix of extrovert and introvert in our family. So I've had to learn a lot of that, but that was just a big real realization to me of how I love presence, just being near my people.

And emptiness, you don't have that, you know. As much, you know.

Rick:
It is. So you gotta, you know, en enjoy those moments when you can. Right. You know, for us as parents, we have to be willing to release that, the the the presence. Quantity is not gonna be there like it was previously, you know, and so the there's a season that's changing there.

Lisa:
All the moments leading up to that, the playing Bloch is playing Uno, you know, the all the different things and So for what I believe though, at the end of the day, i i it's all about relationship

Rick:
You know, and and I I I want to make sure that there's communication lines that are open, that there's trust, that they know at the end of the day that that that they've got cheerleaders, they've got mom and dad that that are are are believing in them, believing in them, that have their back. Um uh and and when they do make a mistake, it's like, you know, we need to be the first to be able to, you know, forgive, to be able to say, you know, hey Uh learn from this and and uh sure there may be consequences, but I wan I want you to be able to really grow and there are times we need to apologize.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness.

Rick:
quite a bit with my my adult kids. It's no longer, you know, I try and kinda take off the dad hat, you know, and kinda say, All right, let's just you know, at this point now, you know, we're two adults, you know, having conversations and uh I hope that uh we can mutually be encouraging to each other. Uh and and and to me kind of that's the long-term goal.

I mean, you know, none of our kids uh have spouses yet, but uh when that point in time comes, then all of a sudden there's a whole new dynamic there, and then you've kind of got families and then You know, at at the end of the day, I mean, we are as parents, our job is to steward these young people and then let them go and release them and and uh turn them loose. They're gonna Uh we we we really hope and believe are they're gonna outlive us and have opportunities that that we'll never see. And and at the end of the day, I think that's what God wants from us as parents is to be able to Invest in these kids.

We don't own them. They're not ours, you know, and when they're a lot very little, I mean you you you you can't even begin to conceive of this. They're just like, oh, they're so I just you know the moms especially I just I hug my kids and I just I got my kids and I I'm a boy mom I'm a grow mom I just love this you know and like okay well guess what that

Lisa:
And then from the dad perspective, uh a dad can uh you know, either parent can live out try to unconsciously it's not always conscious, but we've talked to so many young people and adults. who were like, yes, I put too much pressure on my child of trying to live out uh expecting them to live out what I wanted them to do. Um, you know, to be that doctor, to be the whatever.

And that's something we'd even when our children were little was trying to see what are their gifts and talents and leanings and encourage that? Do they want to do sports? Do they want to do I and this particular sport, there's so many different varieties.

Do they want to um uh you know, do uh music? Are they interested in that? Are there what are their different interests?

Are they creative with art? Because I'm not, but I you know, I would keep a whole thing where they could um you know, paint, glue, whatever, you know, and at least encourage that, even if I wasn't. So y trying to encourage their particular gifts. and talents.

And I do want to jump into also that there are uh there are a couple things that I wanted to touch on in particular of how to connect in in in this situ in this New season in different ways. And the first one is how to connect with our young adult child. And um if we have that young adult child.

And one thing that um that is huge for you and me is to really talk to God about each of our children and they're uniquely them. I will tell you, I really recommend I love this book. I've All these all these bookmarks in it, which makes it twice as thick.

But it's called Praying the Scriptures for Your Adult Children. And I think she has one for younger children. here that are encouraging for me and it literally will say you can pray this for you and they're so hopeful and for you in that season and they're all topical.

It deals with everything of uh you know, when with your young adult child. And then also, um, things to pray. And sometimes I'll even put the date by it.

um in there. But I do that in my Bible also a lot of times. And maybe put a little date by it and things.

So that's a huge thing.

Rick:
Um We do need to pray. You know, and and and and and praying for our kids is is so vital. You and I did that even this morning for our kids.

I mean I just it's a is a uh i it it's it's you know w we we can't control but God certainly is in control and so by talking to him and and you know i I think that that does two things. Number one, God answers prayer, but also it helps in our own heart posture to truly release them into to to to God's authority. So if if they're making mistakes, if they're uh Uh if they're if they're not living well, I I I I love how like Jim Elliott, uh if you know who that uh uh famous missionary martyr um uh his his parents uh at a certain point just realized, you know, look, Jim, you are authority uh y you w you give authority to God for your life at this point.

We're done. You know, I mean we've done our job. Now you report to God.

And I just To me, just mentally, that's that's kind of helped out because, you know, at the at the end of the day, you know, all of us w we have to give an account to God for our own lives, including our own kids. Uh God's gonna ask us what did we do uh to to help our kids succeed, but at the end of the day, i it's not up to us. I mean if our kids make wise choices or poor choices, they're gonna be accountable to God ultimately for their choices and and and that's helped me a little bit to be able to release, you know, like if if my kids make some really dumb choices, that's between them and God at this point.

You know, I I I am I a perfect parent? No. But at the same time

Lisa:
And same for us, our parents were responsible for our deaf choices. It's like, you know, and on and on it goes because we're each r responsible for ourselves and Uh, and but I do think um one uh one of the things that's good also is in this new season is to kind of give some space to our young adult. Um I remember I I will touch on this because all of our children here's another thing is the communication because All three of our children communicate differently.

Some might want to FaceTime, some barely check their text, some will uh text sometimes, some text pictures of what they're eating, some you know, I d you know, just And they're focusing. They're in a new season, maybe with a new job, uh at college, um, maybe they're off with a family, whatever it is, and they kinda do it's just like us. We needed to kind of focus on our new season, whatever that was.

And so my first week of college and now I did communicate with my parents quite a bit, but I know that I re and I actually my first day of school I called my parents in tears. So I was like Now I understand why we got the call.

Rick:
Well it was It was you

Lisa:
Well well sh well for me it was uh a scheduling thing.

Rick:
You got the parents you got the kids you deserved.

Lisa:
But the for me, I it was like a scheduling thing. You know, everything's lined up and you're great stepping out into the unknown. But then stuff got thrown up in the air. So anyway, it was a little messy. But to give that space and like we're all dying to know, how's my child doing?

Rick:
Like you know, these first few days

Lisa:
And I remember I was ecstatic to see something from my son, like on his Instagram, uh w uh my younger son that he had a lobster dinner, you know, his first thing and then I guess he got extra tickets and got other people's lobster And I was like, oh, that's so cool. I love that. Now we don't always have my parents didn't have Instagram to see what was going on.

And and some Some people like to have distance, not have their parents follow their Instagram or whatever. But all the things of uh just giving a little bit of space so they can process that. We're dying to know how they're doing, but sometimes they just need to be able to breathe a little bit.

I can't help but think as far as the communication, our younger son went on a uh summer trip, like a missions trip, and so I didn't think we'd hear a whole lot. But I was like, you know, if you can touch bass every down, that's so two days in we get a text I'm not dead. And then like a week later, nothing it's like crickets and it's like, I'm still not dead.

What's the next one? And sometimes Uh like we gotta be good with that. That's a lot coming from that child.

Rick:
I remember you appreciated that. You answered the biggest question I had.

Lisa:
That's right Terrence question, are you alive? Are you and then our older son, he has joked he travels the world with with his work and all. And there was one time I'm like, so uh So yeah, how's it going or whatever?

And he's like, Oh, I'm I'm in an alleyway and um and but I'm doing okay. They just beat me up for a little while. I'm like, what in the world And then I made it okay to my hotel.

Oh I could they know how to yank our chain, don't they?

Rick:
Sometimes yours especially

Lisa:
And I so all that to say, you know, it ri it is a season of where Everyone's getting to learn these new roles, you know, with each other. And uh something I had to heavily lean into, but this has been a verse for the past several years for me. After my mom died, um, our old she died the day after our oldest graduated high school.

And I was like, I felt like God had prepared my heart and I was like, okay I'm good and I'm okay with our oldest going off to college. And I do believe God can make us ready. And so I was.

Then my mom did. I'm like, I don't want anyone to go anywhere. I just wanted to hunker down.

And our son had um been meeting with young people different places and and things and then he began um needing to travel further, like over highways and scary roads. Scary is this mom's thought on that road. And Um, I was like, I I can't do this.

And then like there was a local community person killed on one of those highways and I'm like, I am so not ready for this. My mom died, my son's even needing to drive and he's still a younger driver, you know, all this sort of And so I was reading in Psalms I uh well actually no this is Isaiah, I'm sorry, but I do go to Psalms quite a bit, but Isaiah 5212, and it's the last part of the verse and it And I read it, I'm like, okay, Lise and it says the Lord goes before you. The God of Israel is your rear guard and I was like, Okay, what did the God of Israel do?

And in the Bible he like parted a sea, he provided, you know bread from heaven, literally. And um so I'm like, do I trust God with my child's life? Because it says He goes before him and behind him and and that's the same with anything.

And now we have a son who hikes, he Hikes with bear spray, you know. Boy, I'd really like 'em back in that living room, the carpeted living room and like when I'm praying, like I'm praying I hope he doesn't see any wildlife. And he did see a couple bears, but they were further away, you know, on one of his hikes.

So um and the world is full of bears out there, right? Like not just the real bears But um so I find myself praying for literal bears and other things that we pray won't hurt the heart of our child or You know, our daughter is in a major city and so just uh to go to work or school or anything. pray for her safety and protection also.

So so all of that that ties into praying, but also the space of letting them succeed. But we will say like with our daughter you rode the subway with her first or the train with her first just to help enable our child to jump in you know, and help them gain confidence. So sometimes sometimes mm a a child wants to just jump on in and other times it It just helps to come alongside.

And then they're off and running. You know, it depends on the child.

Rick:
And you're bringing up a really good point, you know, because you know, when are our kids ready for Fill in the blank. And and and yet we realize that's not realistic. So, you know, how how how do we find that balance?

And you know, and and and I do believe there are some in our culture that would say, you know, the answer is this magic age and They're off, you know, and whatever that is, you know, and it's just kind of this, you know, we pull out the ripcord, we just, you know, you're you are on your own, you know, and and I think there's There's a lot of thinking that the best thing I can do as a mom or dad is just to let 'em sink or swim. You know, and there's a little bit of kind of a attitude with that sometime with just like, you know, I had to figure it out. I had to figure it out with my parents.

You're gonna figure it out with your parents. You and I have been a little, you know, uh more on the gray side of that, I believe, as as parents, just trying to, you know, uh find that balance, you know, and and there's there's no exact right or wrong answer for every family and even for every child and you know w what's what's the appropriate age for this? What's the you brought up, you know, parenting controls earlier.

I mean there's just so much nuance I believe. Into doing this. So I I would just say that for you and I, we've really leaned on the side of of grace as much as we possibly can.

Lisa:
What does that mean?

Rick:
It means And even into these young adult years, it's It's like, you know, look, at the end of the day, I I trust you, you're gonna make this decision. Um I I might not always agree, but that's okay because I'm I'm gonna afford to you the grace.

Lisa:
And w and by doing that moment, but I do believe it just it just helps with the trust. I mean, uh you know, we we see that it

Rick:
honestly every age, all throughout, you know, the parenting journey and the young child years and then into those middle school years and certainly in the teen years and and when that carries on into adult years and is still just this kind of battle between my will versus your will. It just it just never really turns out very well. So I I I I want to lean and defer to this idea that I'm gonna trust you You even may make some mistakes and I'm I'm genuinely okay with that. I release that to God because ultimately you report to God, not to me at this point. So therefore I'm gonna afford that grace to you because I wanna have the trust, the relationship, so that the next big chapter that comes around I have a seat at the table with you that there's a relationship that we can continue to have a conversation when you move into, you know, the choice for a spouse and then then your kids, our grandkids, and then, you know, as you move on down the road Though you know, obviously there's so many things that we think we'd love to do, but at the end of the day they are now the adults and they get to choose.

Lisa:
Right. Right. And I so much good in that.

I will um I I will also I something that I has been something for me and for us is how to connect across the miles in different ways. We talked about like d communication. Uh sometimes we've had wins like for both you know, a young adult child and uh sometimes it's been a little harder to m really find a some people are like, oh, every Sunday we FaceTime our child or whatever.

We like did some of that, but we were more just kinda, hey, when they're available we'll take that call. We'll uh you know, um sometimes maybe they said, Okay, this is a good time or or FaceTime, whatever, but they're the one who is like studying for tests or has work deadlines or whatever and Um and so we kind of are deferential with that. And I know some people might say, Oh, that's still very kidcentric, uh having an empty nut, but it's not.

It's just seeing any friend who's going through a more challenge my my schedule's a little more even keeled than theirs right now. I remember what college was like. It was just like, you know, late nights and trying to get do all the things and Frankly, I think anyone who goes off to college or aud uh you know, is handling their lives with a new job or something, they're doing all the things.

They're eating food, they are sleeping, and th maybe not getting as much sleep, but do I always get enough sleep either, you know? And then Uh doing their laundry, like they obviously are having some clean clothes and things. They will learn how to clean a bathroom if it's disgusting enough.

You know what I mean? There there's just different things. But um I I think there was one situation we learned of a guy in college one time um, who they didn't clean their floor in college.

They just put like cardboard down or something and covered it up in their mouth. I'm like, you know, I d but over time uh people learn to deal with these things. They're not going to um you know, it is that trust, you know, with different things.

Rick:
So And even if they never learn

Lisa:
Right.

Rick:
Again at a certain point that that's not our job anymore. So Exactly.

Lisa:
And so there are different ways to stay in t like the texting, the emailing. Uh sometimes I like doing Venmo even with our young adult children who are working in things. It's like who doesn't like getting just like ten bucks. Now some some people might send a hundred bucks. But for me, I'm like, I it means a world to me if someone even just gives me a Five dollar gift card, you know what I mean?

Rick:
Love them in their love language.

Lisa:
You know, you can go get a little encouragement, you know.

Rick:
Goes a long way. Absolutely.

Lisa:
Just some little something that you're thinking of them uh packages.

Rick:
Helps keep their relationship Nurtured and and something you can do. Yeah, the care packages are great ideas.

Lisa:
If we went for like a family weekend in college, I would that's when I would buy maybe a local uh coffee. shop or restaurant gift card and then put in their stocking or mail it to them as a little something kind of just d you know, squirrel away a little something later. So just ways to connect with them in their world.

And so I I feel like every parent that's different. Like they can you know figure out how that's gonna work and um I do also want to touch on there's a lot about like how to connect with your young adult child. I want to touch on how do you connect with your husband or wife.

So there and I have four of these how to connect with. Well, I wrote this down.

Rick:
Marriages should outlast the kids in the home, you know, and and that's that's the biblical principle.

Lisa:
And so here we are.

Rick:
How are we doing?

Lisa:
Well we're still here, but I do think there are a lot more divorces though too. In that it it's a hard transition to navigate because um both the father and mother have port now sometimes it can it seems like it hits women more, especially if they have chosen to be a stay-at-home mom and things, um, because you've poured so much into that child. And it's like w how do I feel my days?

Like you're not running the sports things and this and that and and especially after the rush of senior year in high school where it is like uh activities galore, you know, even if they're not involved in anything, all the graduation stuff. And it's like, what just happened? It's awfully quiet.

What was this saying? There was something about empty nest and it was like the house is so quiet. I now hear my husband chewing or something like that.

It there's some really funny things out there about like empty nest

Rick:
the the humor in what we're talking about here, uh to the nth degree.

Lisa:
I don't think I've ever thought of your chewing, by the way. Well there's so many things like that. So Um, so anyway, just I think for you and me uh well, we went to Disneyland first, so that was kind of fun.

But then um we We did choose to I try to do some dates. We actually were working together at the time. We still work together some now.

And and so um we did still have a lot in common and shared, but I do think that is something I we use the word being intentional and so that's something we knew we needed to be intentional about this. The being intentional with connecting with your young adult child, of like doing those family weekends or, um, you know, just going to visit your child to connect if when their schedule allows it, those things. But also being intentional of how to connect with your spouse, you know, with your husband and wife if you're married, you know.

Um and so yeah, I think there are different choices. Going out to eat, it's like, wow We're not paying for a family of five, you know, and just to be able to we could actually maybe share some things, you know. It's uh oh well, I guess we shared before too, but I it's just it it is different, but it is definitely a connection that if that connection hasn't been kept up over the years with children it's really a key time more than ever to make sure you're shoring that up.

Go away together, you know, plan a weekend away. Um it's really important and and vital to keep that. Because you guys are the ones together Still then.

Rick:
Right. It's very important for for husband and wife to to to find creative ways to rediscover each other, to be able to start kind of a new season um uh that that just does require some of that intentionality. I think some of it involves just eighteen, twenty years I've been in invested in these kids and now all of a sudden, you know, who am I as a mom now that, you know, I I'm I'm no longer this direct hands on mom role that I had had for so many years.

Well, for dads it can sometimes be the activities that we used to share and do and you know watching the sports games. Where Yeah, where's my uh you know, compadres to come and do the things that I like to do. You know, and uh so you know it's it's it's definitely kind of a new season and I think uh again there needs to be not only we've talked a lot about grace with your kids, but just even grace with each other, you know, to make sure that You know, we're we're we're present for each other and and I'm sure I haven't been there perfectly for your emotional needs through this journey and and there's just different things that we have to be aware of to to realize, you know We've got to have each other's back and and we're still a team and and uh it's just a new season, but we've got to remember we're always on the same team.

Lisa:
And and to have some creativity with that too of just like we're reaching out with our child, you know, in different ways, a little gift card or venom or whatever. Uh what's a way I can love my husband during the season or my wife? Like Um uh does she need flowers?

Does she need, you know, her favorite drink? Does uh does my husband wanna uh you know, whatever, like a subscription to you'd probably love a subscription and watch some of your sports games but but we've decided no right now but you know, those kinds of things just or to even as simple as sitting and watching maybe a game or part of a game with your spouse if that's not your thing necessarily or there's just different ways and it's different in every relationship. So just seeking creativity and intentionality with that.

So I also want to mention how do you this isn't totally emptiness, but how do you connect with other children or a child still at home? that that's another thing. If you don't have a fully empty nest, how do you still connect with that child?

Like if they're younger or if they are are already a young adult, there's differing degrees of Um I I I want to touch on first the child who's still at home. Like our daughter, we uh she went along with us and we traveled, you know. If we went to family weekends to visit the uh, you know, other siblings she came along too and I remember she loved just hanging out in the library one of the places.

Uh mm, you know, one of the college libraries and so she didn't do we didn't make her do all the activities, but she was in on it. You know, she was a part of it and still respecting her uh her wishes of, hey, it's a trip, but she gets to be able to be uh she can choose. She can go hang out in the library.

We'll go to that event or activity, you know. So just kinda doing special things with that child left at home because if you have an older child, that's uh you know, they get attention when they're younger, you know, for a little while and then you know, with every child you have, it's just kind of a special season with the younger ones. And then also we did have two at home for a while too when our oldest went off and just different experiences with them because part of me is like We can't do this if we don't have all five of us, you know?

It's it's always been all five of and so that was something as a mom I kinda had to release and say, Lisa, it's okay. Like go with with who's here in front of you, you know? And go with where God is going and my two children who were still at home are my youngest and and enjoy it go uh whatever, uh have uh travel, uh do uh miniature golf, and I'm not saying extravagant stuff necessarily, just choose to do whatever, you know, going out to have lunch or coffee and and spending time to get to know them.

I do also want to touch on a child who's at home who's a young adult who has maybe come back to home for a little while. And that's a different ball game, also even when they come back from being away at college or whatever, of giving them space because we're not the same as when they left for college. They are a young adult who's been on their own.

And we r we talked about that, I remember, of just trying to um give some space, you know, mentally and just um Uh how do we walk through that relationship when they come home? It's not like, oh, we're all gonna sit down for dinner, you know, at this time or whatever. You gotta give some space because they've had their own life now that they've been leading.

So do you have any thoughts on those couple of things?

Rick:
Yeah, I mean, first of all I I I do know that our culture for a long time has said, you know, once they're out, they're out, you know.

Lisa:
Uh look you know that's up to each family family, right.

Rick:
Each individual family, but but at the same time too, we do live in a day and age where it's harder and harder for these uh young people today to be able to afford their own place, to be able to, you know, get on their feet and all that. And we want that eventually, we want their own independence. Independence. That that's all our goals. Well, I don't think there's a person listening that doesn't want them to have that independence. But the road to that independence may look a little different than it did in

Lisa:
our generation is my point that I'm trying to make.

Rick:
And and I think we need to be, uh, as as parents able to be flexible, even within our own culture. I don't think it's all bad if that child comes home. Now, I want them to be responsible. I want them to be working. I want them to be able to you know, they can't just sit around and just play video games all day and sit under my roof and, you know, expect to be able to uh have all that provided.

Lisa:
And I think a lot of times it's hard enough for that child sometimes to come back home because they want to be out. and have their own place and all the things, but I've seen so many situations where it uh it i it's documented in the news and all the things when I watch the news that uh it it it's so expensive. I don't know you and I've talked about I don't know how we would have made it.

Because we started life you know, no jobs, no anything. And we were barely making like and to meet with a five hundred and fifty dollar rent in, you know, where we first lived. And and Uh, and so all that to say it's hard for them to come home and I s I don't want anyone if it you know, if our children are in that situation to for them to feel belittled Or you know what I mean?

They're coming back already, probably feeling like, oh man, there's that reputation of living in mom and dad's basement. But there is a difference if they're working, if they're helping in different ways, um, uh those kinds of things, you know, stepping into they're they're independent. and we acknowledge their independence.

They are confident. They're a confident young adult and not mooching necessarily. I'm thrilled if you know, they can if they want to come home and be able to do something like that.

So it de b but it depends on each family

Rick:
It really does and it depends on the culture too. I mean, uh we're very US centric in how we approach this, but when you start thinking around the world there's just an awful lot of, you know, two, three, four generations living in the same space together. I mean they just don't have options for much difference. So You know, uh i th there there's a lot of fluidity in in how to go about this. At the end of the day, the bottom line is is our job is to uh raise these kids, to turn them loose to be able to champion and cheer them on and uh just trust that God's gonna really work in their heart and lives as they move into adulthood.

Lisa:
Right, right. Uh I also want to touch on how do I connect with me. Um and I the first thing I want to mention with that is I do believe in any changing season there's a touch of grief.

Rick:
And loss.

Lisa:
Yes.

Rick:
And Loss the way it was, you know?

Lisa:
Yeah. It's just different. And so and even for a mom, I I'm sure I know so many parents are like this.

I if I could v produce a video of like the moment you drop your child off at college or their job or whatever, um the video that goes through my mind. Of you're holding them, feeding them in the middle. Okay, now I'll get teary.

I don't want to get teary. But uh the video, we can go there really fast. Like I didn't even think it would catch me, and I'm just like, oh my goodness.

But we can go through we see our child that way. We see and then we're so thrilled that they've gotten to this point where they are launching off into life. There is no greater thrill as a parent, but to see your child is thriving.

Rick:
Right.

Lisa:
And in the mess. Yeah. Well and and I don't say that lightly because there's so many messes you know of thriving.

And I don't think I was always thriving, but the thing in in college and things about but you know We can't say we're totally not thriving. There are choices that we make of even saying, I'm gonna do this today, you know, I'm gonna do that. choices.

It doesn't have to be earth-shattering things. So I encourage with grief, lean into that a little bit. Write something down if you need to.

Give yourself a lot of grace yourself. We've talked about having grace with our children, uh, grace with a spouse, you know, uh grace with our young adult children who might come home. Grace with ourselves.

Rick:
That's the big one.

Lisa:
And I don't tell people how to grieve, but I do encourage people who are grieving, give yourself some grace and some bandwidth. Don't tackle tons of new projects because it uh that grief will still be lurking in there for and I'm not saying walk around with tissues for days on end, but I am encouraging I and even for me to lean into it for a little bit, acknowledge it, and then get back to life, you know. And there might be moments that, you know, jerk your heart sometimes, but if we don't acknowledge it, it's still there It's just how much will it affect us?

Are we pushing it down? Grief always comes back up, like that beach ball that gets pushed underneath. So I really encourage anyone uh transitioning into the season to not push that down.

You can go skipping off to Disneyland, but there's still that heart tug of my family is different. You know, and this has changed. We don't have all five of us, you know, sleeping here.

They're all sleeping different places and you know out in the world and in alleyways or saying they're in alleyways, you know

Rick:
And for some people, you know, I I think especially, you know, sometimes the moms, you know, there there's a whole new set of time. I've got like time that I didn't have before and I don't know what to do with that time. And that is where I think it takes very uh a lot of wisdom just to be able to patiently Trust and see where's God going?

What it do do I have a new chapter and a new calling? Honestly for you, I mean th this whole podcast experience was something that God leaned into your heart and life of like okay, I and now uh now that the kids are kinda largely Off and going. I'd like to lean into something that you've had on your heart and li t uh mind for a long time.

Uh for you know, for other people there there are some new hobbies and some things that you know uh maybe you can lead into that you didn't have before. But Your point is really wisely is just to take some time to really sense. You don't have to rush into to anything, but really trust in, okay, what is my next chapter going to look like?

like and to be patient in the midst of that.

Lisa:
So in this season also is there uh a purpose or a mission of some kind? Like is there a way I can um uh plug in somewhere because for a mom or a dad this whole season leading up has been a lot about our child or our children. And so is there what will fill in those places, you know, what can I do?

And and some things can be volunteering, you know, whether that's an an organization or school or something or um helping whoever, sometimes it's connecting with people you haven't connected with in a while and because for me I know my children were a lot of you know, uh my focus. For uh for both of us we chose to even go out for dinner with some other people who were in that season of just kicking off empty nest and were like, hey, let's go out for dinner, you know, with other couples. And so who knows?

Um what that might be, that's different for everybody, but everyone needs a purpose and a mission. Maybe it's taking up like you touched on, um You know, even uh a a habit gardening. Now that wouldn't be one of mine.

Everything dies I touch but um you know, anything an old hobby, an old interest of some kind travelling and ex Exploring, decluttering. We still have not gotten done with all that. How many times did I say, Oh, I'll deal with this one so our children are gone?

And and I think we still have a bin of like some broken toys that we thought we would fix someday that will never be fixed right now. And it just needs to be be trashed but anyway uh decluttering and just really through that season um seeking God just through um all the things, you know. And uh for me, one one thing I did how to connect with me, I had three surgeries after that was one of our I d after uh after one tour into empty nest time because I didn't want to deal with those while my children were home, you know, and so I could time them going to a family weekend and have a have a you know, a thumb surgery and then have a shoulder surgery or whatever, you know And uh and that was great.

I actually like doing it that way. No, we can't always do that. So that was not the most exciting part of emptiness, but Those are just some things of even uh that's really key to just kind of say um how do I connect with myself even and and that touches in on connecting with others too during that.

that season there. So I and again, we are not experts with this. We just kind of are chatting on some of the things that have helped us even in this season.

And it's constantly evolving too because Um, our children are all at different milestones and if they call and or if we go visit and even being respectful in their homes, you know, and going at certain times and I love sleeping on the couch in our and you know Uh yeah, in one of our children's apartment and uh I you know, it really is an exciting new season and Even though it can be emotional, it is definitely a change. And I love this. Isaiah 43.

19 says in the Bible, see, I am doing a new thing. God's doing a new thing. Now it springs up.

Do you not perceive it? And I love the thought that God is doing something new, not just in our child's life. Like we think they're the ones who have all the adventure.

They're off at college or new job or something. But there's a new thing that goes on in our heart and life, and that's exciting also. We're not a washed up has been parent We are equipped with gifts and talents that God has given us, whatever that is, and we are uniquely us, and it's just a different chapter we've been pouring into the lives of our children.

But now we can pour into the lives of others, whether you're a mother or a father. And that's exciting. It is a new thing.

Do you have any final thoughts?

Rick:
Final thoughts. Uh you know, those season the season when you have the kids at home. What an exciting season, you know, and I know you and I knew that it was very finite, you know, that that there would come a time.

We didn't bring up the marbles, but our church sometimes, you know, passes out these jars with marbles that, you know, have they you know one marble for every week from the time they're born all the way till uh high school graduation. They do and and the idea is that your time is finite. Now a changing season.

Lisa:
So I want to make sure that while I do have them have the marble when we have the marbles, when we have them at home.

Rick:
Invest in those times because that is a finite time to be able to pour in and to be able to invest, to be able to win the trust, to win their heart, to be able to have a relationship so that when they do go off into adulthood It changes, it's a different season, but I do like your whole point that uh at the end of the day, as individuals, as couples, we now really need to continue pursue God, what do you want from me now uh in this new season? And I I believe there's a lot of neat opportunities there. So yeah thanks for the conversation, Lisa has been Oh, thank you for being here.

Lisa:
And friend, I hope this has been encouraging to you stepping into this and it just Seems like every fall, um, all the social media is blown up with the emotion of dropping a child off at college or a new season or a job or whatever. And so I hope this has been encouraging and for you and touches your heart in some way of just You have a purpose. You have a mission and a reason to be because God has made you uniquely you. And I just hope it is an amazing new chapter ahead for you and it's constantly an ongoing process just like it is for us too. So and I hope next time friend you'll join me on Thrive in the Mess.