Parenting: Bringing Up Confident Children with Special Guest: Lisa’s Friend, Lisa! | Thrive In The Mess | Hutchcraft Ministries

Lisa W.:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

Today we are jumping into a Messy topic, parenting. Lots of messes, but this is a place with no guilt today with parenting. We want you to know you are not alone in any season of parenting and I have an amazing friend of mine.

Her name is Lisa. So I have known Lisa for a long time. We have seen our children grow up together.

And so you have two Lisa's today. So welcome to two Lisas. And we're just gonna kind of we've been through all this

Lisa:
situations, all the well not all the situations, but all the seasons of life.

Lisa W.:
We're gonna try to touch on some different ones from baby through Empty nest and you actually have an empty nest but with a fourteen year old because you guys had another one.

Lisa:
Right. We joke that we have a pubescent teenager in a home with two empty nesters.

Lisa W.:
So That's awesome. So we're gonna we're just gonna kinda jump in. I will tell you, so I asked my younger son last night.

He's he's uh here right now and I said so Blake what did I do well as a mom just like one thing and he's he's studied philosophy he's a thinker and He the first thing he said was, too late to learn from feedback now. Oh my gosh! Wow, thank you.

And then he said this. He said motherhood is made up of hundreds and thousands of small actions, not one thing makes or breaks it. I was like, oh my goodness, that was like powerful.

And then so like you get a little teary at a moment like that. But then we go into some other thing. But then he said this, which I appreciated.

Long-term sustained effort. is motherhood. There's good days or bad bad days.

He said what matters is your average day. And those are the days we sometimes get lost in as a mom like, okay, I have a pile of laundry to fold You know, the sink is full of dishes, the Legos I we've stepped on for the thousandth the thousandth time, you know.

Lisa:
Right.

Lisa W.:
But he said, what do you like on that average day?

Lisa:
Huh.

Lisa W.:
Well, I guess there were some days where then he said, Talk about thriving in the mess. I evidently did not pick up him up at Car Rider Line. I'm like, that was one time. He's like, was it?

Lisa:
Right. You're like, I picked you up thousands of days and you remember one.

Lisa W.:
I remember like being in Car Rider Line and like taking work or a book or something. Because this a lot of car rider line was before phones and all that. So I wasn't like online or You know, so he said the first day I think you were on time.

Oh my god. And he said, Well what did I do? Well he said when you asked Dad to pick me up from school I was like, Oh my goodness I was just absolutely dying laughing, but I take hope that maybe some of the average days added up somehow.

Um because uh those are the things we really as a mom feel like we're not making a difference. We're at home, we're nursing our child, we're doing another bottle, we're doing the diapers, we're wiping bottoms. We think our children will never be potty trained, which was so Me, uh, you know, we started potty training our oldest and then I was expecting our second son and I was so sick I couldn't keep up with it.

I literally everything was not just nausea but like the throwing up part of all the things. So TMI, but you know, we had to we literally put it on hold until his next birthday. Right.

So we waited, we're like, we can't be hit or miss on this. You kind of have to be all in. And you know what?

That was our family choice. So some of that is some of our theme today of, you know, every family. We have, you know, the parents and we choose thing like you and I even, we I we would have done things differently, but you and your husband Uh Rick and I like we end up making choices for our families.

We are the parents for these children who God has put in our life. And We're the ones who have to make those choices and we can't I'm not saying don't listen to other voices, but they're we we have to have boundaries and You know, draw the lines because even our, you know, our parents love us. They love our children.

You know, I know there are some cases where that's a little more traumatic for people, but Um overall we can't we we can't always listen to all the voices because we we have to make those choices for our child and every child is unique in a family. And then oh my goodness, nowadays there are like parenting experts galore. Right.

I would have drowned. You we can drown just online with all the stuff. It's not just books, like we had books.

But you know, online you can see a meme about this. I mean So the other day on Instagram I see two memes and I was like, oh, I need to think about this one But the first one I saw said mothers of sons have more stress. Well not long after I saw one that said mothers of daughters.

Right And I'm like, you know what? Yeah. That's kind of a sign we can't listen to all the things.

Right. Because there's gonna be a study about This and that. Right.

And you know what? We know our child. We're the mom.

We're the dad who God has put in that role in this family. So through talking with our spouse and I you know, really praying and seeking God for each situation i is what we need to do. You know, not listen to all the things because it's just an avalanche.

Right. You know.

Lisa:
Right. And one thing that I have thought about is that there's a huge difference between information and wisdom. And so um That used to be a wall platform.

Um and um one thing that we have always kind of lived by in our family and our kids know kind of our motto is that we are choosing to live differently. So that we can live differently. And so See, this is part of why I love having you as a friend.

There's just choices that you make at different points that are going to be different even than your siblings or your parents chose or even your friends and you just say this is a choice for us because we're choosing to l have s a different outcome at some point. And that's okay.

Lisa W.:
Sometimes I feel like I I uh when I see a parent like on a plane with their child and they may be crying or something, I'm like, kudos to you for traveling because Some people don't and then they miss out on those experiences and your child may be crying but you know they might end up being a traveler someday. Right. It's in still or Just even when they're out doing whatever out, um, to eat, like we were out to eat recently and there was a child walking around and And we just told the parents it's so great you go out to eat because it is teaching a child.

But I think sometimes we come down on children because they're children. They're a child. Right.

They're not us. And they're they those and sometimes usually a child the way they're even they are is how we are inside literally at that same moment. You know.

And like when I get maybe a little bored in a restaurant, sure I might want to get up and wander up. But like we're more mature but that doesn't I I I we just need to give a lot of space for a child being a child. And I think that plays in a school.

I you know, all the things. There's so many things Telling our child to be still, be quiet, do this, do that. Yes.

And children kinda need space to be a child Right. I feel like too. And now I don't know that that's gonna be a wall plaque, but I do really th feel like they just need freedom to be them and not be just squelched into what we think they need to be, what someone else thinks they need to be, what our culture thinks they need to be.

There's just so much pressure with with all of that. So we're gonna lean into kind of All the years you have brought up two amazing, confident, independent young women.

Lisa:
Thank you.

Lisa W.:
And you have a son who is amazing. And uh I do uh I I do wanna touch in there, you had two girls. Yes.

And you you and you and Mark wanted another child. Can you kind of talk a little on that too? 'Cause that's a part of Parents.

Lisa:
So yes, so we have two girls who are thirteen months apart. They are now twenty-three and twenty-four. Um, but when they were tiny, thirteen months is It's it's a thing.

And drowning in diapers. Um and so we just took a breath and um when they were about six and seven Interestingly, you know, you think you've kind of got it all good and they're doing well and they're in school and um Mark and I both um had a leading from the Lord that our family wasn't done. And so we just said, okay, like the This is what we're gonna do.

And um so pretty quickly got pregnant again. It's like, okay, here we go. Um, but before that, um we actually had conversation of Um, we really want to have a son.

And so I don't know if you know that there is a book that will tell you how to have a boy and how to have a girl. Oh my goodness.

Lisa W.:
You know what? Here information overlooking.

Lisa:
Right, right. So we bought it. Like, instead of like just like, okay, Lord, you've led us to this. Whatever child you give us is wonderful, it was like, no, no, no, we're gonna take control of this and we're gonna try, you know, to follow this book that tells us how to have a boy.

Lisa W.:
That's part of parenting in a way. We want to have control, to take care of all the things because it feels more Okay, but we also learn we really don't and don't have to have you know So um

Lisa:
So at uh so I found out I was pregnant. We already had a trip planned at the end of the summer. To a gorgeous place.

And this right. That's what I was gonna say. It wasn't just like uh it was a huge vacation.

We had been saving for about five years. For an anniversary trip, um, and we went to the Virgin Islands. Um and we didn't just go to the Virgin Islands, we went to the island of St. John.

which is the smallest one and you can only get to it by a ferry or a private plane.

Lisa W.:
Well you did totally couple work like yes, we're all in isolate right.

Lisa:
So um So it was um we were like, okay, well we're expecting, but it's newly pre you know, like still young and I thankfully did not have all of the pregnancy s symptoms you had. It was just pretty much, you know, normal. And we landed and about two hours after we had got there, I felt like something was wrong. Um and I and if anyone, a lot, a lot more people than I have realized have experienced miscarriage. But if you have, you know that this there's a feeling and it literally was like a pop, like inside the same feeling as when I had given birth and water broke And that exact same feeling.

Lisa W.:
Oh my goodness.

Lisa:
And I was like, oh gosh, something is really wrong. And so for the next few hours, like this was in the evening, all night, like I just was laying in bed crying, praying, and obviously like losing this baby. And Mark was sitting up in a chair the whole night praying over me and reading scripture and Um, by the morning we decided I need to see a professional.

Right. But we are on like a tiny little island, so all they had is a clinic. And so we went and saw someone and she said, Yes, you've actually already lost this baby, but you are still you're gonna need some medical treatment and so in this gorgeous location.

This beautiful, beautiful and um did you know that they have ambulatory boats So I was in a gurney on a boat going across to the main island. And so they're already treating you maybe IVs or something on the wet Wow. Get there We go in through the ER, which is packed with people, to kind of a room off to the side, six hours.

in this room. Oh. All day long.

We're in this room kind of and paradise. They're coming to check on us and and and find you know, and we're just like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? And Mark's like, I just let's go home.

Let me just take you home and and then um this gigantic dark dark skinned man walks in the door and it was like A breath of the Lord came in the door with him and he was like, You're I've got this. I'm gonna take care of you. And Mark and I both have still talked about that, that it was just overwhelming of the feeling of the Lord's presence in that room when that man walked in.

And he was our surgeon. God sightings.

Lisa W.:
Right. And a hard moment. Well, God sightings.

Lisa:
He was such a gigantic and so it and it just you know I ended up having to have a DNC and staying overnight and those kinds of things. And there were so many times when the Lord carried us through that But on the backside of it, coming home, there was a lot of anger and a lot of sadness and even depression. almost a year of that of me just trying to figure out what what happened.

Like right. We're people that seek the Lord. We're people that that trust in him and felt like he was telling us to do this and then through ki I got into a Bethmore Bible study that's breaking free, which I don't know if anyone's done that And but it felt like the Lord was just like, I told you this, I told you to trust in me, but you chose to lean on your own understanding.

understanding, which is a very familiar verse from Proverbs 3 of just um and um coming through all that and just actually asking for forgiveness of just like there was a huge misstep that we made by taking information and not wisdom. of the Lord. And um so we got to a point where we were just like, okay, we're just maybe we're done.

Maybe we, you know, we're just gonna trust where God leads. About a year later, we're pregnant again. And this time it's with our son.

Lisa W.:
Was that scary? At first, like, will we lose this one? I don't know that I've ever asked you that.

Lisa:
A little. Um I don't think we told anyone until we got past the point for the from the other one. Um and there was a little bit of that, and I'm sure every mom that's that's had a miscarriage, you have this thought of like, oh, there's another child that that's gonna miss out being part of our family. And and you know, he or she would be this old right now now and you know my son that I have now would have an older a sibling that would have been much closer in age than his sisters who are ten years older than me. So That's wild when you think of that.

Lisa W.:
I know right.

Lisa:
Yeah. It just it just weirdly enters your mind at strange times. Like when you see your kids running in the yard and playing with the dog and you're like, oh, there should have been one more of you here Right.

But we'll be reunited, you know, later in life. And so, um, but yes, so at 42 and 46. we had a baby.

Lisa W.:
I love that so much. It's keeping you young. I know. So it is.

Lisa:
It's a it's a thing and it's great. And um it's been wonderful and fun and he's adorable and easy and interestingly we did not talk about this ahead of time but I asked him last night about my mother mothering.

Lisa W.:
It's so funny.

Lisa:
We're both like, okay, my dust. And he was not he was annoyed by the question, first of all. You know, he's a fourteen year old eighth grade boy that is like, What?

Why are you asking me this? And then his answers were Home cooked meals and you get up every morning to take me to practice. Wow.

And so when you said the average day. Like I was like, okay, he just picked average things that he appreciates. And

Lisa W.:
And you definitely I we don't compare in life either, like as parents or people. We have different gifts, but I literally um I home cooked meals aren't necessarily My favorite thing to do. You are awesomely gifted with that.

But somehow our children have survived. And you know, but Rick also does Step in a c and that doesn't mean I haven't, but it's not necessarily my favorite. But people do kind of need nutrition to live.

You know, all my children are in their twenties now, but Wow. Well, you know, I I kinda want to jump back to the baby part. And they I I first of all I just want to say thank you for sharing your story even with loss because I I do know with my mom, uh she they miscarried before me.

But she always told me, she said, Lisa, I wouldn't have you Right. If w uh you know, because that was a loss, but she really I I that was kind of my first take on you know, loss and miscarriage because of hearing that from her. And uh so I I just really appreciate that and even walking through it is loss and even that anger and and even the l a strand in your story of You know, we saved for five years for this and then how are you supposed to enjoy anything after that?

It's just heartbreak in the middle of this gorgeous play.

Lisa:
I've always thought of that with your story. Well actually it w we didn't even tell anyone at home what was happening because um um Mark's parents were dealing with his mom has had Alzheimer's and so that was a thing they were dealing with and my parents were babysitting the girls and I just thought I don't want them to have this extra emotion stress while they're doing these other things. So we just chose to not say anything to anyone.

We went back to our resort. We spent the rest of our vacation. It was much more subdued, you know, weak than You know, we didn't do excursions or anything like that, but we just kind of sat in awe of where we were and how we did feel like the Lord was with us and carried us through that, even though it was a a terrible loss.

Lisa W.:
Right, right. We may need to do a full program on Right. Oh, then I may have you back thrown up, but I do want to jump to, okay, you're in the middle of you have two children, two girls, back to back. And uh you're like we're surrounded by diapers and uh feeding our children the nutrition again is a key element, you know. all those things and so I you know, one thing I thought of I I can't help but bring this into the mix a little Nowadays, you and I when our children were little we didn't have our phones.

Lisa:
Right.

Lisa W.:
Where uh nowadays I I literally sometimes uh I heard recently like a child say, I hate a candy crush Oh right. Because I've never played Candy Crush, but like I know the concept, you know. Yeah.

And but because they see the back of their mom's phone, they're not seeing their mom's face. And I couldn't help but think of, you know, the times even like feeding my children, whether you're, you know, bottle feeding, breastfeeding, whatever. Um I I really would sit there.

Sometimes I might read if they fell asleep, but I remember even when we uh brought our daughter home from China, I remember looking in her eyes trying to find the middle because she has these dark, beautiful eyes. And you know, I I really tried to seek praying in those moments because I'm like, the rest of the day can be very full and doing and going. But those moments are so rare.

You feel so tired in the middle of the night. You feel so worn out just going, going, going, keeping up with just doing the mom things. And then I so I I did make an intentional choice to focus on them in those moments.

I I'm sure I didn't every single time because sometimes I'm sure I dozed off a little bit, you know. But you know, I I really was either praying sometimes I I would maybe sing a song like uh I I always love like Jesus loves me or different things like that. And just quietly singing for them.

But that's that's kind of where I went as As a parent, you know, I some moms would be like, I can't sing that. You know, that's okay, you don't have to, you know. Um uh maybe, you know, some parents might uh um you know, read scripture, try to memorize something.

Some might read. I actually with our oldest I knew very little. I mean I had not no I didn't know anyone with a baby.

And so I literally was trying to read about like you know, different things like nursing and like gross spurts and you know, trying to be like, okay, well why are we in a new stage? Oh, six weeks they might eat more because they're you know, gross spurts. And so trying to learn the flexing and all that sort of thing.

So but um you kinda had a lot going on and then you reached out. That's actually how We had known each other before that. I think we had gone for like a walk, maybe down by the lake or something before, connected a little, but you reached out, wanting to do a playgroup.

Yes. Because as a mom, we can feel kind of isolated sometimes.

Lisa:
Right.

Lisa W.:
We're at home. Now some are juggling, you know, working outside the home. I um And then, you know, taking care of their child, but you were looking for community, not just for your child.

I think I uh you know, some for your mental well being too. Yes. Um you want to talk a little bit about that?

Sure. Yeah, I just I'll never forget that phone call. I literally remember where I was standing at my house uh when you called.

And you know, sometimes we have these little snapshots.

Lisa:
But um Yeah, so with two so close together, thirteen months apart, it is a thing. It's it's a lot. That could be a whole nother program.

It's a lot. And then even um we felt like even um grandparents that we had in town really uh could not handle both of them. Right.

Um even either physically or just mentally, like because it just there was a lot going on with two that little And so I guess they were they were maybe two and three probably by the time we decided to start the play. Maybe not. Maybe they weren't just one and two, but um Uh I kept telling Mark I was like I was like, I know there's other people that are in this situation that are stay-at-home moms with their kids and we're all just trapped in our houses.

Yeah. Because we're we're tied to eating and naps and all these things. And if I can just kind of work it a little bit, you know, for a couple of hours for people to get together and play and let the kids play together and you know, socialize with some other kids and then also see some moms that I wanna befriend.

And um a lot of that was even again going back to the choices that we make and I intentionally chose some people that I felt like I agreed with their lifestyle and their parenting. And I wanted their kids with my kids. And those moms with me, because those would be moms that I would run things by.

Lisa W.:
Right.

Lisa:
And I would appreciate and trust their parenting. Maybe not exactly the same as mine, but I knew they had a similar mindset. Community.

Lisa W.:
Yeah. Yeah. I I a lot of times Rick and I'll talk about like core values even.

That's a great way to put it. Yeah. Well, and so we did.

We did do clear I still have like crafts that I d uh different moms have different gifts and we would kind of rotate between homes or like the park or something. And I remember one of the moms did some kind of plaster thing. I'm like, kudos to her because that was not my you know, thing.

And like they they did like a hand print and different Stones or things and I still have that. I have it too. And y I think you declutter more than I do, so I'm I don't feel as bad, you know.

But I do I love just um how each home kind of took if someone was out more in the country and we did like a hay ride one time in the Fall and I think we literally did a float in our little towns parade one time with our flag group. We gave our group a name and so yay moms, you come together. I d I haven't even thought of that in years.

So But I really I just think that's an important thing to kind of throw out there of community and again you don't have to agree on all the things, but it's just similar right thinking and values and coming together. And um do you have any thoughts on uh we could probably talk for a million hours on this, which would not Go well, but um the uh uh d any other thoughts on like baby just kind of that time period? And even toddler moving into some of that.

Lisa:
Right. So um More toddler um or preschooler age. Um I thought of something the other night of just um again going back to that verse in Proverbs of trust in the Lord and do not lean on your own understanding.

So um the girls were just off is the best way I could say. They kind of were just misbehaving. Um Um not not in like a non-childy way, like you know, they were children, but there was something about kind of some back talk and some just some different little things that I thought I'm not really sure what is happening here because um I I feel like I've been consistent in it.

And so I was praying about it and strangely enough the Lord said they need to stop watching Disney channel. And I was like, that is so specific and so strange. Wow.

Every kid this age watches Disney Channel. Like there's some great shows on there. And it just kept coming up and kept coming up.

And so finally I just said to them, I was like Like, we're gonna turn off Disney Channel for a month. And they were like, What? And I said, you know, we'll come back to it.

We'll see about coming back to it. But for right now, we're just gonna turn it off. And it felt like that was the most bizarre parenting move at the time because it was that was kind of the main channels that little kids would watch.

Um and so um So we did that and it caused us to spend more time reading, going to the library, kind of doing some crafts, and looking back, I think it was actually probably more for me because I was letting

Lisa W.:
Right, right.

Lisa:
And and there are still times that that happened.

Lisa W.:
We just chose different things to put on.

Lisa:
I need uh you know, ten minutes to do this or I needed to get Um but I look back on that and I think I I think that was a lot more for me to be an intentional parent than just that Disney Channel was Right. The bad thing. It wasn't a big thing.

It could have been whatever channel. But now there are more channels. There's a million different things.

But the fact that it was so specific and so directed that I felt like if I don't do this, I think I'm gonna miss something here. And so I just was like, okay, let's do this and just see what happens. And And it was a huge difference.

And then we slowly added some some of the choices from there back in. And um so

Lisa W.:
Well, it's interesting you say that because we ditched satellite at one point because we're like we just I i similarly of We don't um there's no cable where where we live. And th uh so we ended up thinking, you know, the stuff we are watching a lot of the time are on VHS. Anyway, like veggie tails or I you know, um little Einstein.

I think there are certain things we loved, you know, that were just great. And Adora was a big thing, like all the blues clays, you know, was was um uh we tuned into some Disney channel. But anyway, it was kind of similar and I love that you brought up that word intentional because that m there are two things in any relationship and here we're talking about parenting, but we either drift or we're intentional, whether it It's marriage, our family, our children.

Right. And so Rick and I a lot of times would talk about uh drift and or what are we choosing intentionally? And in the middle of parenting those aver I'm I love how how my son mentioned the average days because we can easily drift.

When it's average. You know, I think of I I'm not a boat person, but like if we're going a certain direction, you don't uh you want to keep going a certain way. Make some intentional choices about you're I d what uh you know, we're going north or whatever, because if you drift, well you might get close to rocks And you just end up going whichever the way the wind blows.

Right. Exactly. And the Bible talks about that even being like adrift on the waves and you know, all that and is so intentional is just really key.

And I also love when we don't know what to do I know you've chosen this, I have, of literally praying about the simplest thing. It might seem simple, but it's really not because it can affect our daily life and um and the life of our child. And I do also kinda want to bring into the mix, you know, there is some pressure with parenting.

Some people have come out of very traumatic situations with a parent. There's all kinds of trauma from how they were treated or not treated. I know Rick is really guy he uh there's stuff about like when you have high love and low discipline or low structure.

High discipline and structure and low love. When you have low discipline, low love and when you have high discipline, high love. And some of the I I think I actually had to write this down because like high discipline and rules and low love, those are the people who rebel most of those people are in prisons.

Like when they've looked at studies like that. The high rules, low love. Um a little better is no love, no discipline, which is sad because that's heartbreaking too.

Spoiled is that high love, no discipline or rule. just hey do whatever and then that stable and thriving literally is high love and the high discipline plan or structure or rules. You really need both, that love, that uh emotion, that connection.

And I want to throw in the mix. too like one of my favorite things when my children were younger when they're older you know there might be some but not really it changes when they're young adult just that snuggle time oh you know because humans do need connection. Yeah.

And um, you know, j literally I remember maybe sitting and uh uh in we had this big recliner and I would try to have a basket nearby with like a burp cloth and maybe wipes and a diaper, a bottled water, maybe a book, uh, you know, uh just different little things there maybe even a granola bar, something. Yeah. Because if a child fell asleep, I'm not always gonna get up and just take them to their crib.

I was not Like I for me, I was just like, you know what, I can sit here and I would even maybe have like something nearby to work on or read and I'm like that's okay. Or another child might come up and sit on my lap Up here. Right.

And yes. And just those moments are very precious to me. Because and it seems like you're like Oh, you know, worn out.

Yes. But those are just very uh special moments and very key because of just that connection, that safe. space that nurturing that uh just a peaceful space too because life can be a lot about going and I I something else we kinda decided intentionally um is to be pretty specific on what activities we did.

We did not overschedule because we saw when we did that was not a good thing for our children or us. Or uh n you know, we really made some specific decisions for us. Um it it maybe was one sport they were interested in or to encourage them just to try one.

'Cause when they're little you're still learning their interests and all, you know. Of uh music was a big thing to us. So we Ventured into that a little children's choir at church or um there was like a Bible memorization thing at church.

Like but fun activities and things. Yeah. Library story time.

You know, we would uh sometimes see each other there too. And those were special things. Reading was a big thing too.

Even in those moments where the baby might be asleep, I could like Have a child's book nearby just grab and read Goodnight Moon or whatever. Whatever Pat the Bunny Whatever You know, over again with my other child here, then they get enough attention where then they're down back on the floor playing again. Yeah.

And but they've soaked up some love from mom at the same time. And we've got two arms. We can more children they can pile on, you know.

But those are how did you guys do you have any tips on just kind of, you know?

Lisa:
So um I would have probably just Put everything everyone in everything all the time. Just go, go, go. Um my husband was much more of the one that kind of just pulled in the reins a little bit and said, let's just pick one thing.

And let them do that and try it. And step in, try it, go to the end. If you don't like it, let's try something else.

Right. So um, so we've done that with our kids, but I'll tell you, um My sister's family is completely opposite. They have four kids and they are all in multiple sports and they do travel and everything, but but her son, who is the same age as my son.

They love to be together, but they're very opposites. Um her son is like he doesn't he du thrives on the going and the doing and loves all the sports and loves all the activities. And they have great time in the car because a lot of times they have to divide and conquer.

So one or the other will go with a different kid. on a weekend together and they have four to six hours in the car just with that one kid. And when you have a bunch at home, time with just one makes a difference.

And so That's what works for them. And um so we've we've chosen different paths. And um And it's different for every family.

Lisa W.:
And you know, I love children. Inside. Exactly.

Lisa:
Yes.

Lisa W.:
That's very true. Because uh just even the person because I didn't know any parenting and I you when you're growing up you kind of see you and your siblings are different, but you're still kinda all you're not thinking analytically. Maybe some people are.

With me, I was just like, woo, you know. Yeah. But As a parent, you realize, okay, this child needs that.

Sometimes a child might act out or or whatever, just because they need a little more mom time or dad time or that one on one like especially after a baby is born or um something they if we feel something They feel it too. Like we might be able to kind of keep it from them when they're younger, but but they sense their children are so smart. They're not dumb.

And they pick up on things. So You know, even reassuring them whether it's a storm or a d whatever it might be, whether it's an actual storm like the thunder or the lightning. Right.

You know, or the um or like a life storm and walking through that of whatever and just walking that through that with them. You know, one thing also um that helped me, this is so simple, but I I felt like even if I didn't do anything else that day. And this is average, but I at least would change my clothes out of my pajamas.

And be cut and like maybe even put lipstick on. Right. And here I was with my children at home.

But that just kinda helped me mentally for some re like do my little quickie morning routine. Literally I would be brushing my teeth and my oldest would be maybe putting stickers on my vanity. But you know, I I still would do that quickie little routine.

Yeah. And I felt I it just helped me mentally go launching into our day.

Lisa:
We had um a coffee table that the lid opened, like it was like a trunk sort of in our living room. And once the kids were in bed, all the toys went in the trunk and the lid closed. So our living room looks like a living room.

It didn't look like a playroom like it had all day long. Right. And so even if it was, you know, nine o'clock at night, all the toys went in the The tub and we're like, okay, let's just sit here in this room.

We don't compare, but you are a better woman than I am. That is totally my husband. It was really him.

We've talked about that, right? Um visual clutter is kind of a thing for him. So I'm like, okay, let's just go.

Lisa W.:
I was thrilled if we could get like puzzle pieces. is just even back on top of the same puzzle thing. And I did have like organization for stuff, but our living room was just all out.

That was it was a capital letter, living room. You know, where it was the playroom, it was everything. And and we were okay with that.

We had VHS tapes, but Rick and I were joking. For seven years we probably just it just it was all out just play. You know, we had carpet at that time and even when we brought our daughter back, she wasn't crawling yet.

She was a year old. And so having that carpet, like she was she began just kind of You know, so she was doing her thing crawling and then one son would be like playing with this and trying to uh uh where will this ball fit into and where uh you know, and then the other one is maybe drawing off to the side and drawing Bob from Veggie Tales and um and then we also had like uh crafts uh you know just age appropriate whatever. Right.

And I do love that. And But um I love that you just like threw everything in. We sometimes joked about just having a big broom to sweep it off in the in the corner.

So uh as far as um I I Like even elementary school and things, I want to touch on just energy. Children can be high energy. And I don't I I think we need to I I kind of touched on it before of they're being children and it's not that's not a bad thing.

And I think children really need to know they're okay. And then there are so many things going on. I there are children even with Special needs, you throw that in the mix.

No one else knows. Um there how they should be loved and things right better than that parent. The parent knows their child and Um and like we said, you know, even praying, asking God for wisdom on on things.

Um, but another thing I so w just with energy, I feel like we need to be okay with children being children. And give them space, not break their spirit. Let them um explore life, enjoy life, run around in with joyfulness, you know.

And We want to do that as adults. Yes. Like we'd love to just run through the field and be like, Woo, you know, but but let our children do that You know, and but then also um and sometimes publicly we might be like, okay, pull it back down a little bit, but why?

You know, honestly, it's okay. Let our child enjoy life and th and I'm not talking about don't have boundaries, but just letting them uh because it really can squash a child as a child. Yes.

And throughout life. Right. And 'cause we know adults too who are also you know, still feel inadequate, still feel they're not worthy, still feel um just uh they they're not confident because of whatever went on right as as a child.

I I I will tell you a big thing. And some of this is because my parents did this with me. Um, I think I I I I really I never wanted to be disciplined publicly.

And I I cringe when I hear children being disciplined publicly. And I and we chose to do that with our children to discipline privately. And other people might be like, Well, you should I remember someone saying, You should spank your child for that and I that was not the offense.

Well, like if that's your go-to for all the things. Right, right. I like we were big on okay, is there a defiant heart with this?

Or is this just being a child? Right. Or is there some what's going on?

How are they feeling? And I can't help but think sometimes I I I Rick and I were like and you can't always do this in the moment. You kinda have to step back for a minute.

Right. Sometimes like if a child's reaching for a hot stove. Yes, you got it.

Boom. Get on it. Walking towards a street But would I want to be talked to that way publicly?

I would probably just be in tears in Walmart if someone was like you know to me. Right. A parent or my husband or a friend, you know, anyone.

And so if it would make me cringe and crush my spirit as an adult, part of me is like Do we want to do that to our child? Because are they even hearing when when there are other people around It j and we're being told something loudly and critically and uh you know, are we even hearing that in the moment? Um so that's just something we we intentionally chose is just to discipline privately.

It takes more effort. Right. Getting down on their level.

We were even talking about that of um you know, when a parent is like over their child, uh some parents I you know, I and and even my husband, he's taller than me. I'm like, can you come down to my level? You know, sometimes, you know with saying something because it comes across differently.

I'm shorter and it's like it's more foreboding if you're like, you know, could you uh but for a child, literally getting down on the floor, hey, do you know that maybe hurt your brother Right. Um, or uh we don't want to throw that because uh you know, whatever, or be gentle with your baby sister or something. Right.

Um And then I also think even playing, getting down on the floor. Uh-huh. Because sometimes a child will be like w I d someone might be like uh they feel like their child is at them, like, uh mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy.

But sometimes if we just get on the floor and play with that. I like what you were saying earlier about doing a craft with them and the reading. And sometimes all it takes is something short like that of reading a book, getting down playing, you know, with that uh building that little duplo or Lego thing for a little bit.

Uh playing the musical instrument, whatever. And then they're fine. They're at peace.

They just need that connection. And sometimes we're like that that. So much of it is just a human thing.

They're just littler. Okay. But I I kind of was riffing on a lot there, but just kind of I d I don't know if you have any thoughts on any of that thing.

Lisa:
Um I guess just mo mostly um I I think just letting them be themselves. And um um let them have a voice. That has that was my thing with my my kids was like if you have some thoughts about something, I want you to tell me.

I want you to feel like you have a voice in this family. And um and their voices were very different because they're very different personalities. And um I have one that's so full of energy and um Um, at two years old she was trying to put her own shoes on and I s I reached down to help her and she just said, I do it and I was like I mean, she is twenty four now and still like I'm gonna do it.

Lisa W.:
I'm gonna figure it out.

Lisa:
I'm gonna I'm like, okay, you go girl. And so but to be able to like let go even that early with her and just say When you're ready for some help, I will just help you. I won't do it, but I will help you.

And so so I still feel like even as young adults I still have that conversation with them. And I have to control myself in those conversations of not just telling them what to do or doing it for them. Um, I have one daughter that just graduated last spring and she kind of panicked to stepping into like adulting and apartments and leases and car insurance and all the things and picking out her health insurance from her new job and just, you know.

I and uh she actually said, I need your voice in this.

Lisa W.:
I need your input because I don't know how to do it.

Lisa:
And so but instead of just fixing it for them. Right. Again, you just say, Well let me just guide you here and then you can see how you can do it.

Lisa W.:
And so Rick is really good. He's taught me like to say because you can't always just jump in your heart Wants to help and you're just like, uh, you know, and I would want help probably in some situations too, but um just asking how can I help? I'm here to help.

And I think that's so good because I that's through the teenage years. And I think you and I both like we also um I I and I saw my parents do this gradual independence. Started when with s for some when they're two.

You know, with their shoes. And they're probably gonna leap out further. And so like our oldest was like that.

Our uh all three of my children have gone off very far to college and things. And they m uh our children can do these things. Like I they really can but I I think it's also important to come alongside and say We're here.

We believe in you. Yes. And if they do mess up to not be like that finger in the face of I told you it's that is so harmful.

Right. And just letting them mess up, giving a lot of grace. A lot of bandwidth.

Because I mess up every day and I'm not a young adult, you know?

Lisa:
And sometimes those choices that they make.

Lisa W.:
Right.

Lisa:
Um have have caused harm to them.

Lisa W.:
Yeah.

Lisa:
And you have to go back and say how ha what do you see in this that you could have done differently so that it that doesn't doesn't happen again. Right. And also, I'm so sorry that happened.

You know, it's this weird fine line um of there were some choices in here. that you need to look at and then also I'm really sorry that you're hurting in this. How can I help you in that And so That's so good.

Lisa W.:
And I think also riding it out with them when they've been hurt when it's not their choices. I those things are so heartbreaking. Almost even more because you can't change Mm-hmm.

What happened? The circumstances or people. Um our one our oldest son had to speak up for something when he was tr treated a certain way by someone else, you know, when he was younger.

And You know, uh you just I but we were there supporting him and encouraging him, but we knew it needed to come from him, you know, um, addressing that issue. And You know, you're there and you support and believe in them. Um, I do also kind of want to touch on the apologizing to our child because that is something that I I've heard from so many young people through life or even our age, they did not have a parent who apologized Right.

And it really sticks with them to this day. But for us, Rick and I intentionally it it almost feels like, oh my goodness Really, do I need to apologize? But they need to see.

We know we were wrong. Like when I would say, you know, I am sorry mommy talked like that, or I said that. I was tired and that's not an excuse.

I shouldn't have responded that way. Um and upon and even as young adults apologizing, I said something a few weeks ago and I had no idea that it was received a certain way. And but I'm I'm I'm so thankful.

I think a big thing is just keep the communication lines open. Even when there's broken, there's a lot of broken between parents And children and children and their par both ways. But I think just keeping the communication lines open, meet them where they are, take them out for coffee, take them out for lunch.

Just whatever. Um, and I kind of want to want to jump back to also there is hope in the mess, hope along the way.

Lisa:
Absolutely.

Lisa W.:
Even when you can't see the finish line. Yes. There's so many moments.

We uh uh e neither of us saw the finish line ahead, but it's an everyday uh walking through things. I think of there's a verse um in Isaiah of uh I love where it talks about um how God literally gently leads those who have young And I loved that. It just meant so much to me.

Yeah. Like we have to choose to look to God, but He gently leads us. And we need that as parents too.

We need that grace and and that. I do also want to uh let me see. I want to make sure I one thing I want to touch on also a priority for uh Rick and I, I know for you and Mark and for a lot of families is um instilling something about faith.

You know, for us we would each night pray with our child, encourage them to talk to God. That's what praying is. And I those are some precious moments, hearing them talk to God And uh and reading something from God's word together.

I will say that that can also go a little off the rails.

Lisa:
Oh, right.

Lisa W.:
We I will never forget we literally had read the story about David and Bathsheba, which is where if you're not familiar with the story, David King David back in the Old Testament times sees a woman bathing. On a rooftop. She's married.

He calls for her, has her brought to the palace. They are together intimately and get pregnant. And then it's a whole thing where literally later He sends her back.

Well then he learn they learn she's expecting her husband's off at war, so he's not the one who got her pregnant. So then King David brings the husband back. The husband is so loyal to his troops he won't sleep with his wife in sleeping outside.

But she's pregnant so you can't sleep outside of the house and and so then the king has to say okay well send him back up to the front of the line have everyone pull back and her husband was killed. So all of that and so we uh I think it was just touching on part of that story when our children were little. We didn't get into all of that.

Right. And so then our oldest was like So daddy and mommy and so you give age appropriate things about like an intimate relationship between you know, a man and a woman and all and so he um Uh Rick did talk to him a little bit, but we're like, oh really? We were just doing a Bible story.

Why do we have to world has happened here? Fast forward even later, and then our younger son one day said You know, they never give out coloring sheets at Sunday school about David and Bass My dying about that. But that was the part.

But the thing is they got it. Like even with say when they have a moment like that with humor or even hearing how I've not done well as a mother from my you know my i my younger son the uh last night. You know, they still get it.

They you know, and even praying, we had I have a nephew who was born with heart issues. And I remember we would pray for him, our children would pray for him. And one day I got a call in the car.

We were almost home. And uh it was a call about good news with a surgery from my nephew. And I I told my children in the backseat, guess what?

He's doing okay. And we prayed and God answered. God doesn't know his answer.

We didn't know all the time if my nephew would be okay. Right. And if we might lose him or something.

But my youngest son saw Rainbow outside. He said, Mommy, look, God answered our prayer. Look at the rainbow.

And it's moments like that, you're just like, oh my goodness, you know, in the middle of the mess, and when you really feel like you're not hitting all the things. You're not like did they have too many chicken nuggets? Did they watch too much TV?

Did they whatever the case might be, did I was I too short today Mm it is those I like liter okay now I'll probably get emotional, but literally my sensing it's those average days and they do add up And average isn't bad. Right. We just need to be intentional in the average.

And I I just uh they do get these things along the way. Um, couple final things. I also want to touch on I and we might still jump into some things here, but um I some of the things that I feel like with Rick and I we were intentional I we tried to be.

Now this isn't a hundred percent. No one's a hundred percent. Um I feel like with my brain, I'm all over the place sometimes, but um just to be there To encourage, to love.

And also you touched on children being each so different. But also each of them is a different I'm not always the best with figuring out a love language, but just loving our child in their way. It might be more time.

It m I think all children need time, but uh time or physical touch or um gifts or whatever it might be, there's something that is important to them. um, diving into their interests when I might not be that interested. I you know my my younger son, he's very I uh working on a project.

I am not oriented, uh thinking that way. He is, but I have loved hearing, I love to hear my children's passions. But that's a choice, right?

to dive into that with them. Uh your children have different interests too. You know, well your daughter's is a nurse.

You're not a nurse. You know? And you know, but you dive in and you explore those interests and that's part of Loving them.

And I I think another thing is just r literally saying, I believe in you. Right. Because No one else they might not hear that from anyone else.

Right. They might I are the our world is very there's so much whether it's toxic or not encouraging that's coming at us every day. Right.

And even more so for our children because of it you know, so much out there online and electronic you know, it's a great resource, but it's also a lot coming at us that you're not good enough. You should weigh this. You should look like this.

You should be able to do this this way. You should be great talking in front of people. You should be uh quiet at these sigh there's just so many things that are just things coming at us of You uh you know, you gotta be athletic, you gotta be the we can't do all those things.

You know, that's not their gifting or even our gifting, but to say I believe in you, some parents are freaking out because their child doesn't have a job You know, the whole living in the basement thing, which also doesn't have to be a vilified thing. I I and nowadays it's hard, like the younger generation, Gen Z, to step out into that. It can be very difficult, um, depending on the cost.

of living in an area. It is different than when we were all starting out. Yeah.

Um and so I think to give space and dignity. I talked to one mom recently, they redid an area. that was meant for her parents.

And actually their son stepped into that. They gave him a different entrance. Um it was like in their home.

But they dignified him and never were like you know, when you're gonna get out and you know, all that sort of thing. Um, and I think we just need to kind of see our uh encourage our children to work. Now I know there can be a okay, well they're just sitting around all day on video games, but you know, a lot of young people are not like that.

They're not sitting there. They really do want a purpose. We all do.

We all want to do something. Um I think another thing is saying, I'm in your corner. Yes.

And because we can feel very alone. There are times I've felt like I'm just in a corner by myself too. Yeah.

And whether we get there mentally or literally and Just saying, I am with you. I I you know, I am in your corner on this. Um, and I also think celebrating their life, not just on a birthday, but just like celebrating their gifts, their interests, their special needs even.

There are so many opportunities for for people out there now where they can plug in and if something doesn't exist in that way Create it. Right. You know, just let them create it even.

But do you have any thoughts on just other practical helps, you know, for hope in the mess? Right

Lisa:
So um I think interestingly um when the world shut down for COVID, um my oldest daughter had already gone away to college and she came home. home. My second daughter was a senior and classes ended.

And so um and then my son was in third grade. Um he thought it was wonderful that everyone was home. But um but it just it was very it was really an amazing time to see um, each of their personalities come out in that environment.

And it had been a while since we were really all together that much. They weren't at school, they weren't working a job, they didn't have any after school activities. And so just seeing a little bit more of who they were.

Wow. Was really amazing. And I think it's like it's two sides.

Again, it's kind of this this balance of um with them as they get older um growing with them and watching them become the people that they are becoming and let them become the people they're becoming, not keep them in this box of who they kind of have always been growing up. But then also Mark and I being consistent. We are the same people.

We believe the same things. We're going to tell you the same truth. all the time.

We're going to tell you we love you. We're going to tell you Jesus loves you. And we're going to tell you we're here for you.

And so um so good. So that that was it was I know it was hard for so many people for our family.

Lisa W.:
Right.

Lisa:
It was really truly five five months of blessing and time together.

Lisa W.:
So you know, something hearing you say some of that um makes me think of sometimes we as parents delegate things to other people. Like, okay, well the school educates, you know, maybe church or whatever. you know, faith-based thing, they're the ones I drop off my child.

That's where they hear about God, you know, for a couple hours a week. But we delegate these things to other people or even sports, whatever. The coach does that.

But in regards to a relationship with God. I if our child is only hearing that from other people a couple hours a week. why would that matter to them?

They need to see this is a real thing with mom and dad. No matter what mom and dad have walked through, some people have some rough stories of of life and then wow God gave them hope. They chose to have a relationship with with Jesus and that really turned their life upside down.

And so they do tell their child things like Like, you know what, I used to be addicted to this. Or you know, I was broken in this way, but broken doesn't mean we're not capable of impacting. our children and other people.

Um, or d some people have felt like, you know what, I came from a broken home and I don't feel equipped as a parent, but some of them have been like, you know what, I learned what I want to be because of that as a parent. So I d I I think that's something of being real with our children. That doesn't mean we have to hang all our dirty laundry out when they're two years old, six years old, whatever.

Right. It can be gradual. sharing of our story or hearing other people's stories.

But they need to hear from mom and dad. Um they need to have that time to to really learn that they can talk to God. This is not just a mom and dad thing because I can't have a relationship with Jesus with for my child.

Right. They have to choose that on their own. in a relationship with Jesus when she was a girl and her dad told her, God doesn't have any grandchildren.

He uh he only has children. Oh I can't you know, it's literally you have to choose to have that relationship just because your parent, your mom or dad, goes to church or has a relationship with God or praise That's each person's choice and God doesn't force that, but I love what you said. Jesus loves us, wants that relationship with us.

And one thing that uh I loved from the time my children were little I is uh the verses in Deuteronomy that talk about um it it talking about God and all he's done. along the way, uh when you are sitting down, laying down, uh, walking along the road, and I've added other things in of when you're in the car. You know, you talked about your sister and when they're in the car.

There's so many other moments now of uh when you're on vacation, that's not a break checking out from life. That it gives you more time with your child when you're on the plate, or whatever it might be, you know. You're picking up from car ridder line.

Exactly. Or not or not showing up in car rider line All those things. It's like just think the opportunities I would have had if on time.

Oh, my poor child discard for life. He will never miss picking up his child, I'm sure. And things like that, you know, honestly, some of those things.

Do hurt because uh like I was like I wish I because you don't realize okay, I'm a little late And how it has stuck with my son. And you kinda and and I just touch on that at the end here of sometimes we have regrets. Like I like even last night I was like 'cause we were totally laughing, having a great time with that, but then I'm like, you know, I do feel kind of badly that that is the thing and there's gonna be worse regrets like that with our children.

And but there is hope because God offers hope. You look at that situation with David and um you know and then God even said David was a man after God's own heart The Bible says that. And it's amazing that we can make mistakes, but God gives us another chance.

And those I'm sorry's and I love you and asking our children, please forgive me. You know, those moments are humbling, but they're healing. Yeah.

And even, you know, and then you can laugh about it later in life, you know. So Lisa, anything else you would offer? This has been great.

Oh my goodness. Thank you for being here. I I am so thankful for your friendship, for your wisdom and sharing that with people today.

And friend, I just really hope that you have been encouraged today, just having some hope in the mess of parenting. There's mess that goes along with it, but it's also so much joy and Even in the middle of some really tough times parenting, we can turn to God, ask for wisdom, and just have a whole lot of hope. So I hope you're leaving today encouraged, friend.

I hope to see you next time on Thrive in the Mess.