Mental Health: Hope in Trauma for Your Journey with Special Guest: Dr. Kelly! | Thrive In The Mess | Hutchcraft Ministries

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. Hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess podcast.

My name is Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer and I am thrilled you're here. I know life is messy. I am a wife, a mom of three young adult children.

I love people from all walks of life. And I love conversations. I love learning from people.

And one of the things I see so much when I feel overwhelmed in the daily mess of life. I love encouragement. You never know just a little bit of encouragement from someone, the difference that can make in the middle of your mess.

And so I'm here just to kind of have conversations and stories that can dive into some messy places that some are talked about, some maybe not as much. and to find and hear hope and laughter and encouragement and joy through that whole process. And one of the um one of the things I love is the best-selling book of all time, the Bible.

It has such hope. I go there often. There's stuff about everything and anything there.

And one of the things I've real some of the words I like the best are he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed. I really hope you if you came in here today and you're like, I'm in a mess, I don't even have time to listen to something right now, but I hope you leave refreshed today in some way. So in this space, I hope we can have conversations and hear stories that just talk about the mess, just joy and peace.

chaos and crazy and also just dive in and hear some hope from people. We really can thrive in the mess. And what this place is, is the safe place.

Honestly, I have to say a little side note. If your life is perfect This might not be much help here. So, but I hope for if you're in the middle of of your mess and just daily life, I really hope this will be a place of encouragement for you because life is messy.

And what does mess mean? It it often leads to feeling overwhelmed. I feel like that's the biggest thing, the biggest word I hear from a lot of people is overwhelmed.

It leads to depression. It leads to anxiety. And mess just wreaks havoc on us.

And Sometimes we feel like we have nowhere to go, no one to talk to. So I love just having a space to talk about this because I love hearing other people's stories. I'm always so encouraged, meeting people far and wide.

And sometimes the mess leads to feeling anxious. about our future, uncertain about our identity. It messes with our confidence.

And this isn't something just for one group of people and one generation. This is people in Gen Z to Gen X, boomers to millennials. mess is everywhere and it might take different shapes and forms and sometimes mess comes because of good things even it's not necessarily a negative thing So I hope this will be just encouraging because we all have relationships and parenting and work and finances, school, family, friends, just all the things.

And today I have my friend Kelly with me, who I'll introduce you to in a moment. But Kelly, I looked up the word mess. Listen to this.

A situation or state of affairs that is confused or full of difficulties. Now I can relate to that One goal even for me this week. The past couple weeks, my white painted desk has been gone.

I was determined to find the white paint again on top of my desk. So that was my goal because usually I like to clear off my desk, be ready for the next day. It's not perfect, but it's set and ready to go for the next day.

So But the past couple of weeks it has just gotten a little there's been some different mess, helping a family member downsize and move and being there trying to understand uh one of my children and some of their interests and I like to do a deep dive with them even though I might not understand what they're talking about. So just different mess but I found the white paint of the top of my desk.

Dr. Kelly:
That's awesome.

Lisa:
But it was confusing and difficult. It was a mess. Now listen to this about Thrive.

I looked this up. To grow or develop vigorously. flourish.

And I love that so much. We can do that in our mess. Thrive and not survive.

So then I looked up one more thing What do humans need to thrive? Well this uh this makes sense. Food, water, air, gotta breathe.

shelter and I'd like to add one more thing to that. Conversations and stories with others that give us hope and laughter. I love that so much.

I feel like we do need that as humans to thrive. So We can juggle the joy and the mess together, and I love that so much that we can do that. And since life can be messy, I love hearing authentic and real stories.

Honest failures, unexpected successes. I really like people to know you're not alone. You are seen, you're heard, you are valuable.

So you're invited to join this conversation, invited to join this community, but I encourage you to grab a cup of coffee or some favorite drink, some goodies of some kind. And pull up a comfy chair and join us as we talk about living in the mess. And I want to introduce my friend Kelly here.

I almost don't know how to introduce you, so I'm just going to I'm your friend. I know you are my my friend Kelly who We met, I realized, thirty years ago, which is impossible because we're twenty nine years old. Yeah, how can that be?

No, this is a place for truth also. So we feel twenty-nine. Well I'm twenty-nine with

Dr. Kelly:
Wait. I can't do math right now. I'm fifty-eight, so twenty-nine with whatever that is when you add it together.

Right. No, I can do statistics. But there you go.

Lisa:
Well, and I love that we met each other years ago. Uh Kelly Boucher is uh a wonderful friend. She has walked through a lot of hurt, hope.

humor and laughter has been a part of walking through all of that. And I love that so much about you. I love laughing with you.

I love going deep with you. I you know, I just I really appreciate that about you. And that has I like that about you.

Sorry to interrupt. But I love it. Oh you can interrupt.

This is messy, remember? Well, and I love being able to laugh with you. Um You have told me when you were we were kind of messing around with the chairs and get set up here.

And you did some theater in college. And you this is kind of a little bit of foreshadowing, I guess, for what you do now, which we'll say in a minute, but you played what part? And then you were very dramatic.

And if you could reenact it for us, I would love that.

Dr. Kelly:
Uh I found it very intriguing because we're getting set up and we're just like having fun. I'm like, okay, don't talk. We were like Kind of like spilling the beans too early and and and Rick's like Rick is Lisa's husband.

And he's like, oh hold hold that, like hold the humor or whatever. And I said, okay, we're gonna have to sit like this. And don't talk to me.

And so then when I did that and I swung around in the chair, it reminded me of a skit that I was in in in college. And uh it was a one act play and I was a psychiatrist. So at the entrance, what I was supposed to do is I was supposed to do this.

And then when they came in to meet the psychologist or psychiatrist, I was to Swing around and and very dramatically.

Lisa:
I love that. I'm not a psychiatrist though. But you are, you do have a love of people.

And you do counseling. Yes. You are not.

Psychologist. And you are a doctor now. You are Dr. Kelly.

And I have to tell you, I'm just so proud of you. And plus you look beautiful. Your glasses, the earrings, you m did you make these earrings?

Dr. Kelly:
I did not make these earrings.

Lisa:
You didn't make those.

Dr. Kelly:
Okay, but you do make uh one of the native youth that came to one of our events, she made them and if you look really close, can you see their porcupine quills?

Lisa:
Yeah. I've never seen them integrated like that. Wow, we have an interest in native people, very much Native Americans.

Dr. Kelly:
Our nation's first people. Oh yeah. And you so I made these for you. You love Christmas.

Lisa:
No! Oh my goodness, Michelle, they're beautiful. Oh my goodness.

Okay, we have to show these. So Porcupine quills. Literally we have people we know who if there is a dead porcupine on the road, some of our native friends, they will stop and get it because it is their livelihood.

These are beautiful. Oh, thank you so much. Love those.

Dr. Kelly:
But you have to take the barbs out, speaking of messy. Oh. Yeah.

I can't even imagine. um is the pain of it. So I like to help people with their emotional pain as well.

Yes, uh, because right now, speaking of mess, I have somebody at my house organizing it. Yeah. This week while I'm gone.

I have somebody like a professional organizer at my house.

Lisa:
I need them. But I have a question. Professional organizers, does anyone look at their houses? Like are they real like What does prev who gives them the c I'm just No, I know that's a thing. It's kind of like the Do they have anything any clutter anywhere in their house is what I'm wondering.

Dr. Kelly:
Put it this way. That's like saying uh a psychologist has no trouble. Right.

Counselors have no need for counsel. True. So a lot of times the landscaper has the messiest yard.

Right.

Lisa:
Well, because they're helping other people.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. That's part of you know what? That's what we have to do.

Yeah. Self-care. Yeah.

Self-care is when you care for yourself. And so many people put other people first, Lisa. And what you do is you end up putting others first and you're last in line.

So if you think of it, when you're even on an airplane they say, I have to memorized. I know you travel a lot too. Uh should in the event that we lose cabin pressure, a oxygen mask will drop from the compartment above you.

Lisa:
Right.

Dr. Kelly:
And then it says what Put it on everybody else first? Right. No. Right, right.

You ought to put it on yourself first and then help others. And so what regardless of the things in our lives, we have many people that we care for. And even scripture says, love your neighbor as yourself.

So there's nothing wrong with self-love unless it exceeds it too much. Self-care is important. Oh, so good.

And I think that people will do a better job of caring for others when they actually put the oxygen mask on themselves.

Lisa:
My husband, Rick will actually tell me, put your oxygen mask on, please. You know, he'll say that to me and uh because he knows uh we all get to a point and it's like It's a little much. And you know what?

I kind of want to ask you a little bit about your messy story. I I like messy stories. I don't like the hurt they cause in people's lives.

I don't like the heartache they cause, but there's hope, a whole lot of hope in your story. But can you share some of just your mess?

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah, well, uh I've I've been thinking about this a little bit because I knew that we were gonna speak about mess and I figured we'd get into emotions as well. And um for me, uh it came early in my childhood And I was my parents divorced after a huge explosive argument. And then She remarried.

So my mother remarried within the year and she married a a man married her with five kids He was nineteen years old. Oh wow. And he married a woman with five kids.

Wow. So then there were six children. And when I wa by the time I was eight years old I had already seen in my earliest childhood memories.

So that's sometimes what people say if you have a hard time remembering things. What's your earliest childhood memory? Wow.

Like for me, my earliest childhood memory was my father taking a gun and holding it up towards my mother's face And we were on the sofa. Yeah, it's deep. We go deep.

Lisa:
So I'm kinda like a sandbar.

Dr. Kelly:
I can be really light and you never know when it's gonna get deep and I'll come right back up to the sandbar again.

Lisa:
And not enough people go deep. Because we need to hear about the hard stuff but then the hope that can come in the middle of that.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah, otherwise it's kind of like you know, scripture says we comfort with the comfort we receive. Mm-hmm. So throughout counseling and coming alongside of people.

throughout all the communities and places that I'm able to share, we it's nice to know that we're not alone. We talked you talked earlier about what we need, you know, like food. the things we need for survival.

And we need a sense of belonging. And that's what happens in life. Some people be they can feel so isolated.

And so when I go speak and I do like public speaking and I go to a group and a lot of the women are there and everybody's trying to Of course I wanna look nice. I mean And you do look at you.

Lisa:
You're just like crazy. Yeah, but but don't look too close.

Dr. Kelly:
I mean, but that that's the whole thing. We wanna look good and and then when you're up on the platform Then they're like, Oh, I want to be like that person. Well, do you really?

Because even in scripture, we I I want to be like Jesus because my earliest childhood memory was traumatic. And I went until I was eight years old until I heard the word love in a sentence. I had never heard the words I love you.

So can you imagine that? Like and somebody said, Jesus loves you. And I was like Of course, you know, what?

Somebody loves me. And I was like, wow. And that day my life changed.

What how so? How so? Because they said they said Jesus loves you and I was like, what?

Somebody loves me? Oh, that's so amazing. And then they said They gave, of course I was in Sunday school because our parents were sleeping off their hangover and our babysitter who loved Jesus.

They had a you you might not know this part of my story, but they had a uh contest, whoever brings the most visitors And so Carrie Deeds brought us. There were five of us at the time. No, she brought the she brought the baby too, I think.

And she won the baby. She won the Bible. And that day, a lady named Louise told me that Jesus loves you.

And then to explain that story, he loved me enough to pay for my debt.

Lisa:
Wow.

Dr. Kelly:
He paid because she had to tell me I was a little sinner, which was not hard because I had already stolen a zero candy bar Well by by the age of eight I had stolen my first thing. It wasn't a car, but it was a zero candy bar.

Lisa:
We know we have that. Yeah. Uh we go we have that dark side. It's not just our theater.

Dr. Kelly:
Took it 'cause it was within easy reach, they always put this? Yeah, yeah. You know what is it?

Yeah, it's right there on the other. I remember w What shall we call it? Candy bar.

I don't know if I remember zero. Well, that's because they still sell them, but I don't know why it's like Long John Silver's.

Lisa:
Why is this still open? I mean You don't know. Long John Silvers, my husband, I'm not throwing him under the bus.

I'm just saying, because I love the man dearly. He's amazing. But he used to just eat the um fried stuff, not the fried stuff, f meat He would eat just the fried leftover stuff from Long John Silvers.

Really? Did he work there? Or he just like drives to the city?

He was a kid. I wonder his cholesterol must have been like five thousand just eating it was just you know the little stuff in there you know so but I love the man and he's

Dr. Kelly:
He's one of my still alive and how's his cholesterol?

Lisa:
Uh well cholesterol his cholesterol isn't it as bad, so hopefully it didn't take control. But anyway. So when you say long silvers, yes, that's probably why, you know, I don't know.

Dr. Kelly:
It's like zero candy bars. I I I've only met two people that have ever even liked them. I took that candy bar and I left that that grocery store.

Yeah. And I had it in my pocket and I crawled under my bed. Wow.

See we have that guilt and shame. Oh, I was I crawled under my bed and I opened it up and I was like bit into it and then as a hungry little eight year old because we were not wealthy at all and I spit it up in my hand. I was like, what is this?

But I always tell people, you know, when you look at your mess Yeah. It's like whatever you have to hide is never good. Unless it's like a surprise birthday party or you want to ask somebody to marry you.

Right. You can, you know, uh hide that. Right, right.

But if you start hiding things. So when she told me That Jesus loved me and that he paid the price for my sin, I knew what it was. And I asked him to forgive me that day.

And do you know how I know that I changed? Because the very next day I went to school and I told somebody about it.

Lisa:
Wow.

Dr. Kelly:
I told somebody.

Lisa:
Wow. What did you tell do you remember what you said or you just remember?

Dr. Kelly:
You felt a difference. I remember that. And then I also told my substitute teacher who was kind to me.

And so I had a very messy childhood and there was a lot of alcohol and there was a lot of arguing. But the hardest part And the most the biggest part of my emotional mess was when I came home from school one day and My stepfather was crying in the chair where m because my parents both accepted Christ too. But he was crying there.

Because my mom left. And you know, one of the things that I I have heard one of my mentors say, Jesus said, follow me, not follow my followers. And my mom started following the followers.

And she became very discouraged and disillusioned with the church. And you know what? Churches are full of people.

You know, you walk in a garage, you're not a car. It's not about a building, it's about a personal relationship. Right.

So I came home, he is crying in the very same chair my mom used to do her quiet time and meditation for some that's your meditation. And she would spend time with Jesus in that chair. And she was like him And when she stopped following him then her li my life changed because she took there were six children, she took three and she left three and I was left and I was separated from my twin For the first time in my life.

Lisa:
Oh, that's right.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. And that was really, really messy.

Lisa:
Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot I I think for hearing your story And it's so many other stories.

I it just there's so many layers of messy too that I almost feel like that's where the overwhelmed comes from sometimes because I it's like how do okay, we zone in on one thing, but there's this over here too. It's just layers like the twin your mom left. Like there's a lot of different things going on.

Dr. Kelly:
That was when I was fourteen Wow. Wow. I was 14.

Yeah. So but then of course, so people can make decisions for us. And so some people your mess is that some people have made a decision for you.

Right. They left you And it's really messy and they hurt you. They hurt you.

Right, right. And so what we do with our hurt, so I like to tell people Maybe you've heard this, I think you have. Hurt people hurt people.

Right, right. So if it's true that hurt and it is true. I I can promise you that after twenty five years as being a counselor, yeah.

Hurt people do hurt people. Yeah. And if that is true and it is, then healed people can heal people.

Mm. So I come here with all my mess and if God wants to use it in a way to give other people hope. then that's yeah, whatever.

I am I'm in it to win it because when you feel hopeless, you don't even see the oxygen mask You have to kinda look up to see it though. Yeah. We have to look up.

But in the weight in the heaviness of our and I'm of course talking about emotional math because I'm not a professional organizer. Right, right.

Lisa:
You will be when you go home, you're just gonna be like, wow, it's all here.

Dr. Kelly:
So going back to the landscaper and then so we all need help. And we all need help. So we just have to go to the right people.

Yeah. And I like to go to the person of God. So I have the uh when I that day that I accepted Christ.

And I had hope. It didn't keep me from the mess because decisions were made for me. But I did have hope and I was able to grow in my faith and even though it was very, very confusing.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
Especially when my twin brother died.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And he w we were sixteen. Yeah. And so uh that was a very confusing time.

Lisa:
And we can still have hope even when everything there's total upheaval. That's the one thing. It's when we become hopeless that choices we begin we can go off the rails sometimes with choices, uh whether it's turning to uh you know, you and I have known people who turn to alcohol or things to get rid of the pain, numb the pain. Whatever it is, you know, drinking, drugging, sexing, I d whatever.

Dr. Kelly:
Because they don't want to feel. Yeah. So if you truly so Hurt people, hurt people, healed people, heal people.

And in order to heal, you have to feel. So people go to an anesthetic because they don't want to feel it. It is too Heavy.

Yeah. I can't and you know what I can't do it alone. But so that is the anesthetic.

So some people actually will cut into their flesh. So we've heard of cutting, it's self-mutilation. Some people it's not their flesh that they cut into, but it's their spirit.

And we live in a world and I know that you know that, and anybody watching, there is muse is to think and our muse is to not think. And we live in a world where people don't want to think. So we just muse to think.

Yeah muse is to think Wow. It's kinda like I'm a little slow to the party sometimes.

Lisa:
So I like to just re reiterate it so I get it.

Dr. Kelly:
So anytime you put A in front of something, it cancels it out. Typical. Okay, it's not typical, that's a typical.

Yeah. So some people will just they just go to their amusement. Mm-hmm.

And it's and and I have to say that I have used humor and I do love it and it helps me be resilient. But at the same time, when I was in pain as a child. Yeah.

I used humor to mask my pain. Right, right. And and it took years.

And I met you in that early part of it too. Right. And I never even like started to really feel from my childhood.

So I want to tell people that if uh childhood and then also the pain doesn't stop. There's other things. It could be even a a friend that you're you're disagreeing with or you're having a conflict with and it's really grieving your heart.

Yeah. It's it's like you have to feel it. You have to be able to say I want to look at this.

But instead, I want to feel this. I have to communicate. But a lot of people don't know what to do.

And then maybe they weren't allowed. Maybe you lived in a home that was, hey I'll give you something to cry about. You weren't able to say what caused you pain.

Or don't cry or don't cry.

Lisa:
So much. I I have a question because one of the things I think about is even on the I while I was driving over here today, I literally was thinking about something. Um and I should say I like hearing your messy story.

Not like again, not the hurt part, but the hope part. But also, um, I'm tie I'm tying this in because you deal a lot with mental health. And so I'd like I we're kind of interweaving a lot of this, but thriving in mental health and with mental health.

Um, so a lot of that is being interwoven in here. But one of the things I realized even with me is you start thinking ahead too far. And literally I know, I I think I realized this more uh several years ago after my mom passed away.

I knew if I went down a certain road with grief that was not a good thing. I had to literally stop it. So today I was thinking about something.

I'm like Lisa, stop right there because that's not healthy. And basically I told myself we're gonna stay in today. I talk to myself all the time anyway.

And I answer myself for my poor husband. I'd he'd yeah, he literally I'll be like, No, I was talking to you. You just he's like, I thought you were talking to yourself, you know.

Because I do all the time. But anyway Um, so I did. I literally told myself, okay, Lisa, we're gonna stay in today.

'Cause I really believe God made our world in twenty-four hour chunks of time and to keep our head in that day because it it it literally um God's word the Bible will talk about strength for today my daily bread And there there's more about it um through the Bible, but honestly I take that to mean God will give me strength for today, one day at a time. And uh when I've worked to get healthier one day at a time, people who uh we know people who have dealt with addictions one day at a time, and then all of a sudden they're like I've been sober for three hundred and seventy nine days or something. And I love that for people because it's one day at a time, added up to like three hundred and seventy nine days.

That it three hundred and seven and then times eight hundred and two and whatever. But what what tips do you have for just mental health of like I for me that's one thing that's helped me of just staying present staying in today, but not spiraling. I I guess part of what I'm thinking is it's important to feel And for me, I've told myself, okay, sometimes it's good to like dip into that feeling, but don't stay there.

Someone told me that uh uh a few years ago about They had walked through that. I'm like, that is so good. Lean into it, but you've got to choose to not be there.

And you know, I think of we our culture talks about, you know, maybe okay, uh uh uh the little stereotypical example of breaking up and you they're eating the Hagen Daw's ice cream and you know downing all the stuff or whatever. But so like you're feeling but like basically I would love to know some tips on or any thoughts, any wisdom of feel it but don't get stuck there just because when we get stuck there, our mental health is affected in a really not good way. Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Kelly:
At least for me I know. So I I just wanna To let people know that we real this really is organic. Yeah. I mean this we haven't practiced. This is not scripted, but I brought some things

Lisa:
And I brought food too. Yeah. This is not a problem.

Dr. Kelly:
Oh, I'm definitely gonna be doing that.

Lisa:
If you were in my home, this is what I would do

Dr. Kelly:
do. So I I know. I've I looked at those.

I'm gonna leave with a couple in my pocket. So here, go ahead. Oh I get this is this is where I'm gonna hope I don't ruin this.

I don't know So it's very interesting because I love this is I asked for two props. Two I brought, but I had to ask the the media guys, your crew, hey, do you have any zip ties? Who are great people.

Yeah, they're awesome. Thank you very much. Uh I would not be able to talk like this if you're now I want you to uh put that on your wrist.

please. And you talked you talked about what mess is and what thrive is, and there's a thing called resiliency. And resilience means to bounce back.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
uh when you were talking about, hey, you know, once you start to loop and you talk to you have you or you talked about having we have twenty four hour increments. And scripture says that his mercies are new every morning. And so much can happen in any one day that I mean in one hour.

So I always t say, let's see, let's let's people say, well let's sleep on it, you know, or like whatever. Some people they won't go to sleep. Right.

But this right here is rubber band. So I'm this is mine and I want you to hold give me your index finger. So what is this?

No, don't hold it with your thumb, just your index finger. This is a lot of trust, isn't it? It is because I'm afraid it's gonna slap you or slap you.

Lisa:
Yeah, no kidding.

Dr. Kelly:
But look, um we're just pulling this.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And then when we put it back on the table or whatever, it goes back to shape. Right. Goes back to the same shape So when you're thinking about the same thing and you are actually looping and you're like thinking that same thing and you were so honest and you just shared that like oh I just like no just stop this So I have my clients will put a I'll have them put a rubber band on. I give have rubber bands.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And and I'm like, I'm not sure.

Lisa:
My braces.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah, they're beautiful.

Lisa:
Well we have to have a little sparkle. These are actually me these two by our friend Tammy. Oh.

A Lakota an Oglala Lakota Sue friend of ours. So yes, I've had these. Oh I love her.

This was Jody Williams.

Dr. Kelly:
But really? Yeah. So don't mind us as but so your mind can't think about two things at once.

So when you get into that loop and it it starts to go through. It's similar to an argument. So you're having an argument with somebody and it's very messy and you're like, you're just you're repeating yourself.

And at that around the second or third time that you notice it, you just need to say, let's take a break. We're gonna have a pause. Like like a remote, we're gonna pause and we'll come back to this.

Mm. But when people are really heightened, they can't do that. Right.

Even in our emotions with ourselves, they are messy because they're confusing and you talked about the word being overwhelmed. Our emotions, we can feel two extreme things at once. And and they can just be this like convoluted mess And so when you find yourself looping, you have to spring this And just not like bang like that self-mutilation stuff, but like just like enough because your brain cannot think Depends how frustrated you are with I mean just like be nice, be kind, love your neighbor as yourself.

But you just do that, and then it's just like okay. But this is resilient. Yeah.

This will. Yeah. This is not.

This is a zip tie.

Lisa:
Okay.

Dr. Kelly:
So whoops, I don't know. I love I love learning these things. So So this is I A bad wrist, but this is a zip tie.

Let's see if you can hear this. Uh you can't. Oh. Okay, whoa, that's detaches.

Okay, so this has This has resiliency. Okay. Right.

This has none. Right. This is a few.

Do we need to cut that off? I'm feeling claustrophobic for you now. It's fine.

I mean, it's fine. I'll live another Twelve hours. But so we can bounce back.

Right. So a lot of if right here, this is kind of like this. Some things are fixed.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And the enemy and the the The devourer. That's another thing that we call we call the enemy. The the he's the devourer.

He wants to devour anything good. Evil and yeah. Yeah, so there's like And that he wants to just devour it.

He wants to suffocate you and have fixed thinking. It's like concrete thinking.

Lisa:
Can you give me an example that I Okay, so I'm going to guess. Again, I am not a professional with this at all, but like fixed or concrete thinking of this will never change. Oh yeah. And ultimately I we've seen that probably, I would guess, that leads to even suicide in some cases, where we've lost friends and family and you know, different relatives or um you know, i is that an example of this will never change and that's such a lie, you know, that Well it is a lie, but so here here's where that, you know, but is that an example fixed?

Dr. Kelly:
So some people this is perfect. I'm so glad that you brought this up because Well that's kind of the worst case scenario for mental health. Yeah.

Or not thriving or you don't have people get there. Yeah. So think of any relationship, even if so hurt turns to anger.

Anger turns to bitterness. That'll affect your health. It'll biodegrade you.

Right. Then bitterness turns to wrath. That's your inner rage.

You're so mad you're shaking. Wow. I don't know if you know, but I am an angry person

Lisa:
Mm. So I would not have guessed that.

Dr. Kelly:
No, no. Yeah. Nope. I that is my besetting issue.

Yeah. So Hurt turns to anger. Anger is not wrong.

Right, right. Right? There is a righteous anger.

You right. Do you have a hurt? Right, right.

Uh hurt turns to anger, anger, bitterness, bitterness, wrath. You're so mad you're shaking. Wrath, malice, punch a wall, or a person, or cut into your flesh.

Lisa:
Right.

Dr. Kelly:
And then malice turns to murder. So in my twenty-five years I've only met one homicidal person, thank the Lord. Wow.

But I actually have met people that want to take their own life. Yeah. Which is murder.

Right. Suicidal ideation. The idea of not wanting to live.

So you know what I ask them now? I say They say that they're suicidal and I say, and this is what you could ask people because we all have heard it or you may if you haven't already. I say, do you really not want to live?

Do you really not want to live? Or is it that you don't want to live this way? If something they want the hurt pain to stop.

Yeah. If something changed about your situation, would you want to live? And all but one have said yes.

It's the situation, it's the mess. You don't know what to do with the situation. Right.

Right. So if something changed about your situation, would you want to live? Yeah.

They want to live. They say yes So that's instead of just automatically thinking that people are just want to off themselves, take themselves out, you say, and then That's the messy, messy part. Yeah.

If you don't know what to do about the situation and that's where hopelessness comes in. Yeah. And so you could be zip tied to it or You could take well, that's because I'm so strong.

No, it's because I didn't put it on too tight 'cause and then you could like scissors. Yeah. Just like cut 'em off.

Just like, you know what? I'm not gonna think like that. And um I'm going to be resilient.

And then you ask for help. Yeah. So Wow.

We have to get better at acknowledging what hurt us, and that's why I have this stand aid on. Yeah. To remind myself that I did fracture my arm.

You are hurt. Yeah. They just took the cast off.

Lisa:
But it's really hard. Well, and I I so appreciate just some of the uh your thoughts on all this even to give acknowledging the hurt, but uh also presenting hope. Um I you know, you and I have both uh chosen to believe God offers such hope.

I you've talked a little bit about like sin, like in that um Sunday school class years ago and one of the best I'm always like, okay, well what in the world do some of these religious words mean like sin? And I love the explanation that it's the middle initial is what that is. S I, all about me, N. And it's me making my choices.

choosing my way and my way is gonna hurt me and hurt people in my world and I love how God offers a different way that is meant to give us life to help us thrive not just survive and to give us that hope, that laughter, the joy, all the things our heart longs for. I it it's just God offers that the peace and, you know, peace that we can't even understand. Uh one of those um Uh some of the words I I love are um don't be anxious for anything.

I tell you every time I fly I've had some not great experiences flying. And then my husband literally he called me from a plane one time. There was they were having a donor.

No, no, no, no. But I mean, I'm just like imagining. No, no, no. It's true. I d well I know I our brain goes like to all the crazy videos right now of like on the pl on the plane.

No, it wasn't that as much as um literally one time we were hovering over a runway And they at night and we were rocking, you know, a little bit. Sure enough there was wind shear. They were gunning it back up in the sky.

I'm like, we're gonna have another plane, my baby's sleeping next to me, my six month old, you know And so my husband jumped on listening to the cockpit and they were trying to copy that, you know, and then uh you know, just we d they couldn't see the landing gear if it was whole thing. And then um my husband and my dad were in a um a they had to do a like assume crash position all that. They didn't know they blew a wheelchair.

Yeah, and that would they literally dropped Gasoline for all that to say every time I fly, I'm like, okay, God, you say don't be anxious for anything, and there's no asterisk there. Like it says, but in everything, pray. Like I'm supposed to trust God with that.

And I'm thinking, okay, you know, and so I usually I just have to literally or I will J really kinda go to a place that's not very healthy with anxiety and all that. And then it talks about peace. Oh, I'd I I'd so have to do that.

Dr. Kelly:
You know what it boils down to? Um uh That's a boat control. I'm not saying you're controlling.

I'm saying that you're a goat and you have to pray, but that's you can't see the pilot. So I want to tie this into We have to trust the pilots. Yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of people can't trust God. Yeah.

Because one, if they don't believe he exists, but yet you'll get on a plane Yeah. That you don't understand. Even pilots don't understand the Bernoul Bernoulli principle.

It's a mystery. How does the air go over the top? I mean they say I mean they try, but by faith you get on that plane and you're going to be one tomorrow I'm gonna be in Michigan.

I'm gonna get on that plane by faith and I'm gonna But I can't see the pilot. I know we all have to go back to our lives. But it's it's that just really trusting.

Yeah. And then but the fact also is is that um Like scripture says, be anxious for nothing. Right.

So going all the way back to that. So when you talk about S I N, it's living your life your way. Trying to meet your needs your way.

And I always want to ask. And and I've been there and I have done that. And I have, let me tell you, I put the capital I in sin I have walked away from God in my life.

I have tried to meet my needs my way.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And I have been left wanting and with wounds. And he didn't come for the perfect people. We're talking about mess and you know the perfectionism.

If we try to be perfect, we can't. We cannot. I I know that I cannot be perfect. I need zip ties, I need uh duct tape.

I I do need to get some duct tape before for my suitcase 'cause

Lisa:
There's a meals.

Dr. Kelly:
Oh no. I'm just saying it out loud so I'll remember. But we need all these things to keep us together. But he did not come for the perfect.

Lisa:
That's right. He didn't come for the perfect. And he was Jesus was the only perfect God's son.

So I because we have no way to rescue ourselves from all our my way choices, all our crud, all our mess When you think of it and Jesus is the one, God sent his only son to be able to Pay our like with that sin, there's a death penalty and and affects our life here on earth. It affects our eternity and just all the things and I love the hope that God offers. I would be I would be a an totally different person.

Rick and I often talk about what we would be like if we had not chosen to have a relationship with Jesus in life and I don't like the person I believe I would be, um, just looking at at at who I would be and

Dr. Kelly:
Well I can tell you I already know that because we even with Jesus No not you. Ah, sorry. That's like a dangling modifier.

Uh I can already tell you who you'd be I know I could tell you who I would be. I can tell you because there are even with him I get I have to make a choice each day who am I gonna serve. Right.

And I can serve my flesh And I have to I have to just and I can tell you that Yeah. I it is very messy but And for the anybody that's listening that's like, wow, this is an awful lot about Jesus, or this is a lot about faith, and this is, and I'm telling you. that I could easily go deeper into my story so that you would maybe be able to say, Oh, okay, this is a real person.

Uh that this isn't just something that happened. I for a decade walked away from faith. I had to handle garbage when I would go to some ministries to come alongside of them.

because I lost my ability to communicate, but it was just like okay, because I just wasn't And I wasn't happy.

Lisa:
Yeah. And can I I I don't mean to jump in, but I a part of your story I would love if you could touch on of just some of the abuse stuff. There are a lot of people who've walked through some abuse in life.

And that's a pretty that's a whole nother painful, messy situation because it's something we didn't choose Some of our mess is our choices. Yeah. Some of our mess is from other people.

And uh can you just touch on that?

Dr. Kelly:
So um well there's different types of abuse. There's emotional abuse, sexual abuse, uh Uh there's physical abuse, emotional. So for me, um, I guess, yeah, uh we I the thing that comes to my mind is something that I haven't really shared publicly except for one other time and I'm going to share it because uh I told you earlier hurt people hurt people.

So and healed people heal people. Well, we after my father, biological father and my mother split, then my mom had five children and she needed help. So there was actually a babysitter.

There was a fifteen-year-old girl that she brought into the home because she could have help with her five children and also her set of twins and three and diapers. And so she brought this girl into our home and she would help and she said, hey, you can like live here, all of that, but just help with the children. So in comes this uh this lady, we'll girl, fifteen year old girl, we'll call her Norma because that's her name.

And Norma came in and Norma had come from a home where she was actually prostituted out of her home by her own mother. And she came into our home and hurt people hurt people. And she hurt us.

She beat us so badly that when the police came to arrest my mother thinking she was the one that beat us, they They said, who did this to you? And of course we're gonna pick the the child with the speech impediment. I couldn't even say my name, Lisa.

Lisa:
Oh wow.

Dr. Kelly:
And so I my name was Ketty for a long time, but now I can say Kelly.

Lisa:
Wow.

Dr. Kelly:
And they said, Who did this to you? And I said, Mama. I mean I said Noma.

Noma. Oh. Noma, but they thought I said Mama.

I said Noma. Noma did this. And then they went and to arrest my mother and put her in cuts and I still remember it.

And then I was like, not mama, no ma And then my oldest sister said she's not saying mama, she's saying Norma. Because Norma beat us so badly. But the abuse that happened was also that in the basement of that Pff sounds like a story, but it's true.

It's my life, my messy, beautiful life. This one room schoolhouse in this, you know, small rural town. And in the basement of that home, she made my twin brother and I lie on one another like naked.

Lisa:
Golly.

Dr. Kelly:
I had to lie on top of my twin brother Tommy naked in that basement. Wow. And so because hurt people hurt people.

But healed people can heal people. Yeah. And so I don't know where she is, but I've since done my work with that.

And I hope to meet her and I one day and I'm like I don't know. She's only 15 years older than me, but if she's still alive.

Lisa:
You know, Cal. I just I appreciate you because you have walked through Healing, you do this with other people in their lives. And I love how you bring hope because of your healing to so many.

And so just thank you for sharing. I i it's hard because you don't want to h encourage people to revisit hard things, but sometimes sharing that I've just seen it impact people so much in throughout their lives of just saying, But that was me and there's so many i strands and layers to your story. I I really hope and pray just one part even might encourage anyone watching today because of the hope that you have found when you were eight years old.

And and you said, yeah, there's a lot about Jesus or whatever, but Yeah. That's why you are jubilant and bubbly. Why I would not even realize that anger was a thing.

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And just like the table once and Oh, I only had two little legs left in my hand once.

Lisa:
Okay, one I have to ask you, I'm so sorry. Jump to this. This is my brain, it's like herding cats.

It jumps all over the place. Um, we talked about fixed and concrete with the zip tie. This is totally not related to this.

Doesn't matter. But you have a joke about concrete And oh yeah criminals.

Dr. Kelly:
Can you please share I actually told that to uh just this morning when I was speaking to a group And yeah. And so we're away. Yeah.

And I uh so I pulled out the newspaper and I'm like, hey, you know, um You have been here for the week and you probably haven't heard the news and opened up the newspaper and said, well, uh, there was an armored truck going down Route 51 and it was carrying prisoners. And it collided with the cement mixer. And they're looking for the hardened criminals now.

So that was one of them.

Lisa:
And never gets old. And before I forget, I have a couple other questions I'm gonna ask you real quick, but we must do a selfie. Oh yeah.

I figure we have to do that. There's a glare? Okay, here.

I love doing and now it's not gonna go. It's okay. We'll figure it out later.

So I do have a couple questions. What would you tell someone Um uh I I uh one thing for me, and I I do want to grab this out of your story. You said there is a teacher who is kind to you, substitute teacher.

And I call things like that when I hear messy, I call those God sightings. I've walked through so many messes of myself or with other people and I feel like it's a choice to try to look for God sightings in our days to see where does God show up. It might be a sunset.

It might be a text from someone. It might be Whatever. For you, I I I heard that and I'm like, wow, the power of someone, their kindness.

in your life with all that other stuff going on that she would not have known. I love that. So I love the that's just something else that has helped me is God sightings.

But I'm curious with mental health things What would you tell someone who is walking through um just deep things and hard things who does not believe in God or who does not yet um uh have a relationship with Jesus who's trying to do life without God. Well what would you tell them?

Dr. Kelly:
I I might not sound very compassionate right now. I'll be like, how's that working for you? But then I tell people, hey, you know what?

How is what you're believing helping you? So I sat in this chair and I had faith that it would hold me up I'm losing your calendar. No, I look really tall and I'm really not.

But that's what I put my faith in. Right. And so What you put your faith in is really important and if it can hold you up and that's fine, it can meet all of your needs, but um we have to it all comes to trust.

Right. So you can put your faith in whatever you want to, but but is it giving you hope is your countenance. See he's the keeper of my countenance.

Because I I promise you this I am not a happy person by nature. I'm lighthearted and joyful Part of it is my resilience, part of it's my uh been a mask that have helped me, but I promise you this is joy right now. Right.

But and so I'd say put your put your gloves on. You have some questions. You have some questions for them.

I'm like, oh, okay. Hey. Put your put your gloves on, duke it out with them.

It's just like any relationship or somebody you don't understand. And I've said, if you cannot, you cannot see him. Because our view of our biological father is often our view of God.

So I didn't have a I had a father that was punitive and wouldn't beat us, like the first one, and then my view is if I mess up then God's gonna punish me. Something bad happens, this is what happened. I did I did something wrong.

Or you had a father that wouldn't wouldn't do help anything, help you with anything. Then you have a hard time asking God for help to supply your needs. Like 'cause you'd I went through tw uh seventeen years of college alone and only had one twenty dollar bill given to me.

Wow. So it was all about work. I never had somebody that I could ask help for.

Right. So my prayers of like, hey I had to work on that and realize that he leans into me and he wants to have that personal relationship with me, but he will not force it. Right.

Lisa:
But harsh dads or missing dads. We've seen that so much. Or missing fathers.

I don't know. I like to have the word dad be more intimate, but like a Yeah. Harsh father or missing father.

Dr. Kelly:
So I for the people that have been harmed by their dads. Right, right. And then and it's like or other Here's the thing you talked about the teacher.

What did you know here that teacher she was kind to you? Yeah. Well the reason that that was so significant to me is because the teacher the year before Actually, no surprise that I had a little bit of ADHD, which by the way is often untreated childhood PTSD.

Interesting. Yeah. So I was a little nervous like kid and hyperactive and that teacher tied me to my chair with her long scarf.

I'm in from Michigan. But that's not even anything. That was just one day.

Then she got our new refrigerator. How do I know that? Well as an adult I know it because it was this big huge box And she cut out part of it and then she put my little desk.

My little teeny tiny desk.

Lisa:
I was grade.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah, time out. She still taught. I could hear.

And I look left at cardboard. Look right at cardboard. I was isolated and I felt different and alone.

Right. And I it was horrible Yeah. So because of that experience, I was able to acknowledge, wow, this is kindness.

So even if somebody in your life has been punitive, have not represented Jesus well, and they you want nothing to do with it. Right. You know that there are actually people out there like Mrs. Shirley Keys, who was kind to me.

Wow. And when I went to school that day and I 'cause she was her last day there as a substitute. And I took my little New Testament and I wanted to give her my little New Testament Bible.

And I said, 'Cause I wanna see you again And she said, I have one. I want to tell you about Jesus. I know him.

And she represented him well. So if if that's what I want to do. Oh wow.

Lisa:
Oh, so much. And Kelly, I know you and I could like go on forever and like just have like a a sleepover, invite people to hey, we'll just kind of we got some snacks for a little longer here and um What would you tell someone who uh is a follower of Jesus? Like with any well things with mental health and how to deal with that?

Dr. Kelly:
Followers of Jesus I would say don't have selective suffering So can you define that a little more? Oh yeah. We want to be like Jesus.

He was a man of sorrows. He was acquainted with grief He had a lot of mess actually. Homeless lots of things.

So we cannot be selective in our suffering. Right. We say, Oh I I want to be like Jesus, but not the sorrow Right.

We comfort with the comfort we received. We have to look up. We have to just pause.

I mean, and to let him comfort you. Yeah. Like don't stiff arm him.

Yeah. Well just like and when you don't know how to pray, it's okay. Because it's a conversation.

If you don't understand him, you could say, I don't understand. I thought your word said that you would give me the desires of my heart I thought I was following you. I thought this.

And just pause and listen. Be still and know that I am God. It's very hard for me to practice being still.

Lisa:
Um one thing I want to also I love that, but uh you talked earlier about like all the things leading to each other. Um, and you ended up on bitterness. And I know I've heard before that bitterness is um it it's what really it's crippling to us.

because it's in us. It does it doesn't hurt the other person. It hurts us.

Um forgiveness, can you just I I I feel like forgiveness sometimes ties into our mental health and our mental well being. Can you just kinda elaborate on some of that? Because I know you've had to do some of doing the hard work.

with you know, past and thriving in mental health has been forgiving. I I will say I remember there was one time who literally Uh someone shared with me they went up to the person who had sexually abused them and said, I forgive you. And the person laughed in their face.

And I know that can happen. But it's it frees us. It's heartbreaking if that's gonna happen.

I don't say that to scare anyone from doing that. I don't know that we always have to go to that person, but in that s in in any situation it just frees us. But I'd love to just touch on forgiveness and then I think we're gonna have to wrap up our day.

Dr. Kelly:
I think it's a perfect place to end. One, um As far as forgiveness goes, that is really broad. But the first thing that comes to my mind is if somebody has been raped, they were assaulted and then and I'm sorry for the triggers, guys, but We're not just that there's sandbars and then there's like the We're trying to give hope with the because absolutely, because you may never ever see that person again.

And and I've never seen that girl. I don't even remember what she looks like. I just remember that event when she you know, had us do that and beat us.

But I would have that capacity, but the only reason that I have capacity and ability to forgive somebody is because I have received it. Right. Bitterness only offends it only hurts you.

So you can you can release it. You have to release it or it will biodegrade your body. That's a powerful expression.

Lisa:
You said that uh earlier and I was gonna jump back to that.

Dr. Kelly:
It lowers your immunity, it's just down. But and I wanna let you know for anybody that has been uh Abused. Scripture says, and this is the verse you're gonna love, it says that it would be better for that individual to have a millstone tied around their neck.

and be dropped to the depths of the sea. And there's mountains underneath the sea, did you know that? And they are high peaks.

Then two um not confess that sin. They if they harm a child, it says it would be better for them To have that stone tied around their neck. I think it's like a ton.

It's a big stone. And dropped to the depths of the sea, than to stand before God having that repented of that sin that they did towards a child. Suffer the little children come to me.

So there will be justice. And and because God is a God of justice. He is a God of justice and righteousness.

Lisa:
Yeah. And it's I I just love that forgiving and the bitterness and and these are not little things to just say, oh forgive, oh do the and we're not I am not wanting to trivialize anything with mental health or the laughter or anything. Because it's very real, very significant, but the hope and just all the the things that can come are freeing.

And these are things that people have to work through, but it's freeing to on the other side and the hope that God can give us when we look to him, you know, to have choose his way instead of our way. I just I love that so much. I I just grabbed the cookies because I love that you're gesturing with a cookie.

What are you gonna say?

Dr. Kelly:
Because it's like, okay, go ahead and grab one so I don't touch your cookie.

Lisa:
Oh no, I want this.

Dr. Kelly:
Oh you want grapes? Just grab a cookie for a prop then. But this is cookie cutter Right.

These cookies are the same size. It's like okay, they're all gonna come out and look alike. Right.

We're not saying that every single I mean, we could talk about forgiveness for like I mean there's tons and tons of books on it. One size does not fit all. So it tak you have to take things individually.

Yeah. And you have to take it incrementally and do it one day at a time. And just be still, know that he is God.

Learn to trust him. And uh yeah.

Lisa:
I uh because I think I've seen uh you talk about some of these things before. Um, when you say be still, something I add to, that sometimes is breathe. I feel like the being still part for me involves just literally breathing.

I literally, when I feel myself you know, kind of amping up, I literally will go just kind of breathe, catch our breath. Sometimes it might mean like a nap. It might mean just having a snack.

It might mean getting a drink of you know water or something. And those even those little tips have helped me. So I love the be still part.

But Kelly, we could talk forever. I love you. You're an amazing start to interrupt.

No, go during your I'm so happy you're eating something because I You know, I love that. And I just want to say thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us, Kelly.

I'm so thankful you're here in town where I could talk with you. I really hope you're leaving refreshed. Encourage and come back and join us again sometime with Thrive in the Mess.