Thrive in the Mess! with Special Guest: Lisa's Husband! | Thrive In The Mess | Hutchcraft Ministries

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I'm Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. And no matter how we plan our life and try to have it be perfect, life can be messy. And I'd like to have some authentic conversations and real life stories with everyday people and about everyday life And in the middle of our mess, sometimes we can feel alone.

We feel like we're the only one walking through it. And it's not true. You are not alone.

So in this space, I hope to have conversations with people from all walks of life, all different generations, and talking about different messes in life that they have walked through and that each of us walk through. So no you're not alone. I hope we can sort not just survive, but thrive in everyday life.

And For my very first one, this is my first time. I'm thrilled with friends who have put together a wonderful, beautiful space. That is not necessarily my gifting, but I so love people who have those gifts and talents.

So, and I kept trying to think, who do I want to talk with on this very first Thrive in the Mess. Well who better to know my messes and so many messes in my life than someone who met me when I was 16 years old And who really became a part of my life when I was 18. And that is my amazing husband Rick.

So Rick, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

Rick:
Thank you, Lisa. It is an honor to be here. This really is exciting. And you've had a vision for this opportunity to be able to just share a little bit more of your heart with the world and uh I'm just so excited that you asked me to be your first guest. Uh I just can't wait to See what unfolds over the next few minutes.

Lisa:
And I will say uh all of this I want to interject laughter and hope and faith. That is where all of this is going to be. Messes can be hard, but there still can be humor and laughter in the middle of all that and hope and faith and is seeing how God can show up in these ways in our lives, which we have seen numerous times.

I kind of just want to jump in. We have not I n I we have not Pre-taught or pre pre-practice. I really want this to be authentic and just kind of riffing here.

So But I'd like to just kinda go back to we met each other when we were sixteen and there were no sparks. So and and first of all, we're going to chat a little bit about our lives today because there are different messes in life that everyone walks through. So we're just gonna kinda walk through some of that and then these are examples of conversations that I am having with many different people across all walks of life, um, dealing with all kinds of things.

So with this one we're kind of just riffing on from the beginning. And through life.

Rick:
And I'm so excited, Lisa, because you know, your idea here, this thrive in the mess, it's i it really is, I think, a a really timely idea because I know for a lot of us. we kind of get this idea that, you know, uh I just I just gotta fix all my problems. I gotta find a way to just kinda uh get this life just or w you know, we we don't like trials, we don't like, you know, sufferings.

We don't like things to go wrong. We don't like it when things aren't aren't going our way, so to speak. And uh we don't like to have bad days.

And yet our lives are full of those and w we're constantly up against just the you know kind of this messiness of life and uh it feels like we're all just kind of spending our lifetime just trying to fix these messes and trying to get this solved, whether it's our, you know, relationships, our marriage or our kids, or the people that we love or at work. And uh I think uh I I just uh you and I have talked quite a bit about kind of your vision for this and the kind of people you're gonna be talking to. And I just I think this is such the right idea for a podcast, uh, to be able to have these conversations.

I believe that Uh uh it's it's it's such a vital way for us to know, you know, how how can we in this life, you know, make the most of uh of what our life's going on. I I I like that word you chose, thrive. Uh I looked it up uh uh in in God's Word, the Bible, and we're gonna reference uh a lot of that throughout our conversation, but um the word thrive appears 12 times.

In the NIV. And uh it's really interesting because sometimes it's referencing when the wicked thrive. And I thought that was really interesting.

When the wicked thrive, so does sin, uh says in Proverbs twenty nine, sixteen. And so sometimes like, you know, we're like Oh wow. Why is it that like good things happen to bad people, right?

We've had that conversation. And why why is it that sometimes uh you know, life seems to go good for them and I'm trying to do things right and things aren't going well for me and and and God's word even speaks to that. But uh I like this this verse here.

It says when the righteous thrive the people rejoice. And I I like the word thrive because it just to me it's like, you know, in the midst of all this messiness in life, you know, how can we not just fix things but just thrive to be able to just have a life where We can have joy.

Lisa:
I I uh And sometimes they're not fixable. Like there are so many things in life that we honestly can't fix, but how are we choosing to walk through it? You know, you get that diagnosis That's not fixable necessarily.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And but are we going to walk through it with a certain kind of um perspective or attitude and that's hard and there is grief involved even with some of these things that come our way. Uh the loss of something, the loss of a person. Well that's not fixable.

Like The day my mom died, I remember we were in the ER and I was praying. I'm like, I'm like, God, is there any way you could have life come back into her eyes? And that was not how he answered that.

But she did. He did do that because he took her to heaven instead that day. So and she had a whole lot more life than she would have had.

here on earth, but there are things that we can't fix and I think that's part of us like it's frustrating when we can't fix it. I was thinking the other night we were trying to log into something and You're like, what email did this go to? And it's like when it's an old thing from the past.

Rick:
I think you're the only one that ever happens to. I don't think anybody else can relate to that.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness. It was like, where is this going to And th those kinds of things are, you know, it just we have different mess. So but I we're gonna get to all that.

Rick:
Kill and destroy. That's what the enemy does. But but what does Jesus do?

He says, I have come that they may have life and have it to the full And no matter what your perspective is um uh on the Bible or God's word, I think I think we all can relate to this idea that having life to the full is uh something that we would all just love to have and I know that's what you want to talk about. I just want to say one last thing before we dive into our content. Um I I just affirm you as the spokesperson for this.

I really do. Uh I've spent a lot of years with you and I just believe that you have great wisdom and insights uh to share with the world and I'm so grateful that you have this platform. I believe that uh Uh I I have the privilege of being able to spend uh, you know, our life together and just hear your insights, uh this contagious laugh.

this authenticity that uh people see you at, uh see you with. Uh uh, you really are the real deal. And and I believe that what what you exactly What you see is what you get with Lisa.

So um I'm I'm excited.

Lisa:
Everything you're saying is very kind, very nice. But I do have to say that in a a marriage where like my brain can be all over the place. It can be like herding cats.

And you are you know, more linear and so it's very nice you've dealt with the herding cat's perspective all these years. And we don't compare gifts in life. That's a that's a b not just us, but like I I encourage people not to ever compare because it just kills us, kills our joy.

And God made us uniquely us. So and so yes, I again I want to come back to just some of our messes in life, you know, and including that first time we almost didn't end up together because we were very let's just say first impressions are not lasting impressions. And so we met, we actually met on a radio program that my dad was beginning for teenagers.

He flew me out from New Jersey and Uh Rick's uh my dad's radio producer selected Rick to come in and represent teenage guys.

Rick:
I represent teenage girls, we were sixteen years old and forty years ago this month.

Lisa:
I mean like what a milestone. This is crazy. Right. And so but we were very not impressed with each other and the topic was actually dating. Which is actually so funny.

Rick:
We have the tape. We have the recording.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness. So somehow fast forward a couple of years and we ended up um on a uh a missions trip together and actually that's when we caught each other's eye more and you know, really uh but the mess was we could have ended up just like what ev you know and even for that mission trip, okay Rick, I have to tell you, here we were going to the other side of the world where people have black hair, dark hair and you showed up I knew you weren't did not have blonde hair and you showed up with blonde hair

Lisa:
I was not judging. Okay, maybe a little. I'm honest if I judge. And I was like, okay, that guy is really stuck on himself What in the world?

Rick:
And Wow, how did we ever get past uh week one?

Lisa:
We barely did. And and I actually I but then I learned you and your mom thought it was a fun idea and So I was like, you know what? Okay, and now that I know you and your mom, I get that and all the things.

But yeah, that between the hair and like I was just like, oh my goodness. That I was like, okay. Anyway, so that was kind of fun.

And I want to jump back even to when we were kids. Okay. Like kindergarten.

Um for me, one of the things in life that has kind of gotten me in trouble sometimes is my enthusiasm, sometimes my laughter. Literally in high school, even I'll jump back to kindergarten anyway.

Rick:
Shocker.

Lisa:
There's one time in the night my friends and I I I we we could not stop giggling, but let me just say I couldn't stop giggling. And so our little that we were at a youth conference and we ended up having to our um restitution. The next day was we had to paint the side of the place we were staying. This house, this hotel at the Jersey Shore.

Lisa:
It's not just a hotel, but it's like a it's very different.

Lisa:
And I grew up in New Jersey, so and so my friends and I, but we still had a blast and we giggled through that too. So but kindergarten first day of school, like for all the moms out there, we've sent our children off to school. If you have little children and all the things, my poor mom gets a phone call.

my first day of kindergarten and says, Mrs. Hutchcraft, I think your daughter needs stitches. And I sure did. Sure did.

Right on my chin. There was a little kitchen in the corner of the kindergarten classroom. And I was so excited, I grabbed the back of a chair that was was around that table, kicked my legs up behind me.

I don't know what I was thinking. Obviously I didn't know much of science and physics and gravity at that point. Because then my chin comes crashing down on the chair and splits open.

So my poor mom. Like there are things now that my mom is gone. I'm like Did I ever thank her for putting up with me and dealing with these things?

Like she she would talk about having three strong-willed children and Some people can call that stubborn, but honestly my mom called it strong willed and I I really appreciated that because we talked about that as parents. A strong will, you don't want to break someone's will. but if it can be, you know, directed a certain way and encourage a child a certain way.

And she always said she hoped we wouldn't cave. Like we would not cave to peer pressure, but that we would take a stand for things that we believed in someday. And each of us has but boy, you know, you put three strong wheel children in the backseat of a car and you know, just all kinds of things.

So I've you kindergarten you have a kindergarten story, honey, about perfection.

Rick:
Sure, sure. I've never seen that strong will from you in forty years of marriage.

Lisa:
Oh, right.

Rick:
Um yeah, no kindergarten stories. I mean I'm just picturing you just just you know you you get you're you you're you're getting mess by jumping up and down with all your enthusiasm. Your enthusiasm's leading to to all this mess. That's crazy.

Lisa:
So like I've I I I think of teachers I know, I can't even imagine them being like my first day of class and this kid gets stitches, you know, anyway.

Rick:
Well for yeah. For for me I I literally can remember kindergarten and and a as I kind of reflect over kind of a lifetime of just my personality and I can think, just just I have really worked towards uh perfectionism and and that's the thing. Well there's firstborn but there's also personality types.

There's there's just hard wirings that, you know, for me as long as life is perfect then I'm doing great. And when it's not, then I can get very frustrated and uh you know, that that's kind of the nice word, but really the at the end of the day it's anger. It's it's it's it's it's it's really, you know, just just kind of anger inside of me when things aren't going the way that I want them to.

So in kindergarten um the assignment was um uh to just just color a piece of paper of of trees and uh houses and fences and I mean like How can you get something wrong? I managed to get something wrong because uh uh she wanted the the fence colored in, so I got, you know, these crayola crayons and In my mind, you know, fences were white, right? You think of a white picket fence or like you know, our favorite restaurant at the time was White Fence Farm.

And uh so I took my white crayon and I colored in the fence white. Well Turned in my piece of paper and I got it back the next day with a big giant red X on the white fence. She's like this is wrong because uh you didn't color it in and I'm I'm you know, there's several things going through my mind.

First of all, like you know, the injustice of this because I had colored it. It's white, can't you tell? Uh but secondly it was just this idea that I I can look back now and just realize, you know i i I didn't get a perfect grade.

You know, I didn't get this, you know, this paper perfect. And and I I that was kindergarten. I just fast forward through all my academic career.

And that pressure that I put on myself to just, you know, try and have all everything perfect, always get gr uh, you know, straight A's, always be able to perform well in in any aspect of life. And And uh if I had had this podcast uh back when I was much younger, I think I could have learned, you know, no, it's it's not about, you know, just having a perfect life. It's you know how how can we recognize that messes are going to come our way and to be able to thrive in those and and that's why I get excited about this conversation with you today and really for all the conversations you're gonna be having and the weeks and months ahead.

I I just really believe that um our listeners, our viewers, um, as they get a chance to get to know you and your heart even more Uh this is gonna be just a a a a great opportunity I think for folks to to resonate with just something. Uh you know, 'cause it's it's it it's gonna be a little different each time. But I know you got a lot of exciting things ahead.

Lisa:
You know, one thing I'm gonna pick up on that you said, we've talked a lot Now, we have three young adult children now and they are um uh when we look at like videos from when they were children and when we talk about certain things and personality traits, we see that like things I we literally were out to eat a few nights ago and this little boy was kind of wandering around like in the in the restaurants and this major chain restaurant and the parents, you know, we're always trying to encourage parents, it's great you take your children out to eat. You know, they need to have those experiences. Though I think we always had to tip more because we always had all this food under the table, like when they were little, you know, afterwards.

It just ends up there. And then, um And and then also traveling. Like it kudos to them for doing that because you gotta start somewhere.

And um but anyway, just some of the messes like that, um You know, you see some of the things in your child when they're little and we told those parents that of looking back because

Rick:
I think we said something about now our child is like twenty six, you know that's a line is you know, my three year old just turned twenty six, you know, and and that's just kinda my way of saying how fast it just kinda goes, you know. When you have the three year old, you're not thinking about, you know, the fact that, you know, we're only twenty years away from them being a young adult. But man, time flies for sure.

Lisa:
like the messes of like trying to potty train or you're waking up and nursing in the middle of the night and doing diapers and so tired and juggling all the things and sitting with maybe clean laundry, maybe not clean laundry, you know And just all the stuff. But the thing is we'd we've always sought to try to focus on people, like uh and and stuff has gotten shoved to the side. And literally we literally still have some messes like in our storage downstairs in the basement.

Lisa:
Physical messes. We don't want to know there.

Lisa:
Because we would throw like broken toys in like a bin, you know, and hope we would fix it and we We won't. So but it's those kinds of things that was one of our intentional choices. That's a big word for us is intention, being intentional. And we did choose that to um to not uh not focus on all the little extra sometimes and to focus on our children.

And yeah, we probably left a few more Legos out on the floor and stuff and didn't clean up everything every night. We tried to I remember you said one time we should just get one of those big like outdoor brooms, the wide ones, and just like sweep it in a corner every night. We never did do that, but you feel like you want to.

And honestly, if you choose to do that, great, because your children, if they feel loved and secure And I you know, sometimes we pursue that perfection and it makes us more high strung and our children feel that and they feel like There there's something where, you know, mom or dad has that stress, has that anxiety, whatever, and they need to not have that either. But jumping back to that seeing that in you, that perfection as a child and how it, you know, went across the years. And we see that with our children, not perfection, but like other things.

Well, I'm not gonna say they're not they don't strive for that. They each tried, you know I feel like I'm the mom who's like, hey, chill out. You work really hard, you know, and uh, you know, I like that they pursue excellence, but we've always tried to

Rick:
You've helped me process how to put relationships ahead of activities and things and and checklists and checkboxes and sometimes I can be very much like, you know you know, wanting to get the task done, getting this project done. And and one of the things that I've had to learn over the course of my life is uh you know, it it's it's not about just getting tasks done and checking the box and And somebody out there maybe can relate to this. You know, you're wired a little differently where you you just said, you know, Rick, just people, you know, just just let's invest in them. Let's make that a priority.

Lisa:
I actually have something that next thing I wanted to bring up Tyson away. One of the little messes when we were dating that I was kinda like, okay, um was when we were in college, you uh so we're studying uh pian an an instrument, you also uh are very do very well academically and studying. You like to do all that alone. You can sit at your desk and dig in and study and no one el have no one else around or go to the library and focus on stage. Okay, so Shaw piano for hours on end and like F and I'm like, hey, can I come and study?

Lisa:
And like just sit in the practice room in the corner or together and you know

Lisa:
Uh you know, just because I I would study even growing up. I would be in the living room and just I wanted to have family around. And we've we've worked together for years and my office I liked having the door open because I just like to know people were are around.

We have fast forward you would like shut the door to get work done. And I just I feel like closed off like I just I not that I have to be talking with people because I'm working, they're working, but it's presence. I never knew what to call that until you and I years later, even now, I'll be like Oh, could you come and just like be near?

And even when our children come home, our young adult children, you know, we have some introverted children and an extroverted child and And I I've learned to give some space and extra bandwidth like around uh for like the introverts and and things because I've learned more about that. And And even I need space where I need to pull back at times too. All that said, that we've learned I you know, but it's taken a long time.

I'm not always the best just like sizing that up and calling it what it is. I have friends who can be like, man, that's blah-b the, you know. But with that, with me, we realize that in recent years of its presence.

I enjoy when my children are home, even if I don't have tons of time with them, like if they're doing different things and stuff, it's presence. And uh even like eating around the table, we always tried to make sure we like ate together as a family, no matter what the activities were going on and the presence with that. And even to this day, when we like connect with our young adult children, we love going out to eat with them.

Even our daughter, she got a job and she took us to dinner recently. I was like, oh she asked me after she oh boy. If she see she's like, Mom, you ordered like appetizers.

She's like Did you do that because it was cheaper? I'm like, well actually, I d truth, I had fun because I picked two appetizers and they were cheaper than an entree. Like as a mom, I'm like, I can't do that.

Rick:
Hey, I had a fifty dollar steak and let her pay for it, so uh well she baked the place.

Lisa:
I was like, Oh my goodness, we don't go out and eat like the But it was so it was just such a gesture of love to her and That that actually has been a new realization to me. Actually that I haven't I don't think I've expressed this to you, that w you know, you give and give to your children. you pray and you you know you trust that they will emerge as you know young people who care and you know care about their world.

I we've prayed our children would have a heart for God. But then when uh we have to be willing as parents, like they want to gift back in different ways. And it's different with each of our children.

That that's a big thing we learned is like every child is different and you know even disciplining uh was different for fair but like different for each you know so anyway I that was a big realization to me that even when they're growing up like they do little things like A little coupon for Mother's Day or Father's Day, but like she really wanted you to buy that fifty dollar steak. And we're like Okay. But what love?

Rick:
Yeah. uh weeks and months to come.

Lisa:
We're just kind of rambling all the time. This is we're not hurting any cats.

Rick:
Well but here's here's the thing. It's it's there's different personalities. You know, people are wired differently.

Uh you know, you talk about different languages of love, right? You know, you were just talking a lot about how presence, you know, time spent uh for you is is really uh a high priority. I know for you, you know, giving and receiving gifts is something that both you enjoy, but you also love to do.

You love to be able to Set out, you know, nice spreads of things like this. with different folks, you uh um uh just have a real gift for that. But what that also brings out though is is um uh you you talked about the introvert extrovert thing And uh there there can be a lot of conflict sometimes in that, you know, because like maybe I'm just like, you know, I I really need to be alone right now because that's how I recharge.

And you're like, but I need to be with you because that's how I recharge, you know, and so

Lisa:
And you learn along the way. Right.

Rick:
And and so but life can get messy when you start realizing, you know, oh wow, there's different perspectives here. And uh in a marriage you spend a lifetime trying to sort out, you know, well how can I be there for you and vice versa and Uh and that's just in any relationship, you know, just how can we navigate and work through you know what otherwise could just be complicated, conflict and and since you and I are conflict resolving experts, right? We can uh yeah, well um in any case uh talk about mess conflict right there being

Lisa:
Extrovert introvert, though you are the most extroverted introvert I've ever known. I I surprise people sometimes.

Rick:
They they they see me and they're like, Oh wow, you must be an extrovert.

Lisa:
You've kept going sometimes when I've been like

Rick:
I need to go back like to the room or go I d like just pull back to be like what recharges you and and for me I do get recharged being alone and and and I just see you you'll spend a night with people sometimes you're like woo let's do it again yeah

Lisa:
I do have to throw in the mix. I I I was gonna mention in regards to your um big red X for your white fence.

Rick:
Oh.

Lisa:
I have a story stark about that. You maybe have judged me about this for years because it was my worst academic moment ever. But um they uh The uh when I was in elementary school, I failed a worksheet on Roman numerals. You did. So every Super Bowl I really am up a creek.

Lisa:
I it's like I it's just like you block it out, you're like, I failed it, wrote it off, forget it. And I do I care? No.

Rick:
So the number XVII is.

Lisa:
Please don't even do that right now because that will be really embarrassing. Oh my twenty-five. Wait, what did you say? You know what, we're not even gonna go there right now because I really will will mess.

Lisa:
I seriously, there are some corners of our mind though, I think sometimes where We didn't I we failed it or something. And like some things we d I I feel like sometimes we feel like we fail But it's not really failure. And like we were even talking about that with one of our um uh children recently of I I it's not failure.

It's just sometimes we have to find a different direction, you know, because it it feels like failure, but some of that is just our culture saying certain things. And that's the co our culture and our world aren't always saying what's accurate. You know, there's so much pressure on, you know, everything from the time children are little of being potty trained at a certain point, um, behaving, sitting and behaving, our oldest son.

Like you know, I remember some people were like when he jumped off the back of um of the choir uh uh you children's choir at church and he jumped off the back. He was just so excited and all but you know it was things like that. He had such joy with it And uh we also learned he was the youngest out of all those, uh all his peers at that time with you know, at church and inquire and stuff.

So we actually that actually helped us make the decision to start him in s in uh school later, you know, in kindergarten. 'Cause he was like the baby of that class. So, you know, there's things like that that happen, but our world is like, they shouldn't do that, you know.

And you know what? Honestly, every family is different and no one can tell us like if we're doing this if we're I m you know, whatever because those are choices and priorities for each family, like us with Um, some people are not going to leave the Legos out at night. Sometimes we're like, you know what, tomorrow's a new day, we're gonna start over, you know.

Um for us even traveling like vacations, we were big on experiences. Now yeah, we really are because we didn't I remember, you know, one time uh our younger son asked something about Mom, you know, could you work full time because then we could have a nicer car because we were just having issues with our car and repairs and and I worked part-time because I I wanted to focus on them, you know. And and uh so I explained that, but you know, our children see that wisdom later.

Rick:
Um so anyway, um Well here here's a theme that I think uh we're hitting on right here and I believe you're gonna hit on um uh in through so many of these broadcasts. You know, it's It's the distinguishing between what the culture says is expected of us. And we all feel that, right? I mean, pick a topic. I mean, whether it's marriage, whether it's parenting, whether it's work, whatever, you know, it's it's this It's this drive that culture seems to say, mm, you need to kind of do it this way.

Lisa:
And it's not just saying, I feel like culture s Screams it sometimes and it's too much. And it creates a lot of anxiety and a lot of pressure that we can honestly say You know what? No. That's not the choice for me and my family.

Rick:
Well exactly. And that that's where I I do believe you and I have tried to put our finger on all right what is the culture expecting and and resisting in in many situations saying, all right, I am not gonna let we are not gonna let the culture dictate how we raise our kids, how we live our marriage, how we instead we're looking to God's word, we're looking to uh uh uh Not just take the cultural drumbeat, do it this way, do it this way, do it this way, because that's where I think the messes come in life is that a lot of times we're just like My life doesn't align with what everybody else is doing. Uh you know, what was it back when we were teenagers?

Lisa:
It was there's that word comparison again.

Rick:
Comparison. Um fit in, you know, we got the social media, we've all had that now for, you know, a couple decades now. And we're all just like, oh well, my life doesn't look like this person's life. And you know, I I I feel like this pressure, pressure to be able to to fit in to be able to that keeping up with the Jones is.

Lisa:
But I think like when we were growing up that referred more to like possessions like cars and homes and such. Yeah. And now that might be some of it, but I think it's also of how you know, people d kind of look, you know, the Bible even says the word the phrase haughty eyes.

I don't know I but I think of that with we look down with disdain on like the screaming child. Well the child, I literally told a parent recently, you know what? I've so been there.

I've had children. They are expressing what we have just because we're older mature. Yes, like we have a little more self-control, but there are times I feel exactly like that child.

I'm tired. I don't want to be at Walmart then. You know, I would like to be home and having a nap and maybe I'm just hungry.

How many times do I tell people, you know what? Or tell myself, okay, breathe Get something to eat, get a little protein, have a drink of water, maybe have a nap. And you know what?

Those things of like sleep and just some nutrition and a drink. and catching our breath make a huge difference, you know, and so those kinds of things I I I just see so much stress swirling around us. Okay, let's try to Talk about some other little messes for us.

I don't know that we ever totally I do remember you did let me hang out by you a little when you were practicing

Rick:
Well I began to realize that it's a little bit very generous, nice thing of my girlfriend.

Lisa:
I was like highlighting in my cutting I was happy as a lark and you were practicing and I know I can't talk at that moment and that's fine, I don't want to talk. I just wanted to like be near my fiance as he's practicing. That's right.

Pino, you know, we were engaged at that point. Yes. So so anyway, um, so we got married in in January.

In the winter, we had no jobs. We'd just graduated college early. And no one's hiring and we had like no income.

We're living off like some wedding gift money. And that's a little rough. when you're first married.

Remember those really ugly like nowadays we have like store brands of food, but back then it was like generic the white boxes. And the black like block print that they were really and it was that section of the store. And I remember we would go shopping there.

One thing I vowed we had Um, no offense to whoever created that. Um, but the macaroni and cheese generic, it was terrible. And I vowed to myself I would buy craft macaroni and cheese the rest of my life.

Rick:
We didn't have much money, but we'll at least get brand name mac and cheese.

Lisa:
Yes, that was the one thing. But you know what? In time we ended up doing like some temp work.

Like we we um you know had a heart. We wanted to do some uh, you know, maybe even work together if we could. And But it was definitely a messy season.

It was. It was hard because we just had a lot of stress. I was getting up early to do whatever attempt.

You were you know, helping uh with music at a local church and and that just put a lot of stress, but you know, you work through it and Uh you just have patience and I think we went and moved to N ate your parents leftovers 'cause we live like half an hour from them. So they're like, Oh, we don't like leftovers as much and we're like, Oh, we'll we'll we do leftovers. So, you know, you do the things you you need to do, you know, but uh but there are messes.

Rick:
It is it's a challenge for any new marriage and and you know we uh definitely went through that season and um You know, uh you you learn and you grow each step of the way, you know. Uh uh.

Lisa:
They want to have their job. Like we've talked to young people who are like, I want this job, I w need this income, I need to have this lined up. But part of our our our thinking is, you know, it kinda helps to go through these things together even like we had no jobs.

Like, yes, that had some stresses with it, but you know, you can emerge Stronger. I don't think we always were thriving in those moments. We were kind of surviving too because we were brand new married and trying to make rent we didn't have the spot.

Right. there was no such thing as a podcast. And then um, you know, but there are ways you can thrive along the way.

W just even having a good attitude with it and not oh poor me that sort of thing.

Rick:
But we were growing a lot at that time. I mean, believe me, I did not have it figured out. It was um

Lisa:
Do we ever really have any of life totally figured out challenging time?

Rick:
But I I will say this, you know, again, what does the culture say? Today, today culture is saying, you know, hey, make sure you get everything in line, get your uh job in order, get your uh um career direction set, have a little financial flexibility and then you can maybe get married and start a life together and you know, we just saw it real differently. Like, you know, we were twenty two years old and just off and running and we're like, all right, we got

Lisa:
And it depends also what age people get married too. Some people It's great they are like in that. But then we've uh you know seen friends where two come together even if they are older and in their jobs and things.

that, you know, you still have to work to thrive together because you're two people coming together with Yeah, so no matter the mess, it's again comes back to intentional choices. And we did not use that word intentional then. That's been more like later in life for us, maybe the past twenty years, where we've talked about that.

Another word I want to throw out there, simplicity. I read a book when our children were little. about uh I don't know how I had the time to read a book when our children were little, but but about simplicity and just simple living.

And you and I made some pretty strong choices of the specific activities, our children like we wanted to know their interests and then what would they be involved in because we saw in our children and other children the stress with constant running. We're like, nope, we don't want that. And because we didn't want that for our children, we r we really believed in just kind of letting them be you know, able to play and not always having that structure, like a safe place to play and certain things.

And and I love looking back because like our older son was really into puzzles. which at the end of the day I couldn't even put them together. When we were cleaning up, I literally there was this frog puzzle and it was my worst nightmare.

I just like threw the pieces on it and put it on the shelf for the next day. And he could like do it the ne I still don't know how he did that so fast. But you know, God gives people different gifts.

And to this day with what he does with his work, he's putting puzzles together and pieces together with events for young people and things. Our younger son wasn't really about puzzles, but he liked Legos. And he to this day I I love seeing these things, you know, like you look back and see your child then And then later he left the building and I'm like, he has been into like logic and math and philosophy and uh deep thinking and and it's like the building of the foundation.

So that's my little hot take as you know, as their mom. And but the other didn't like the other. And but I thought our next child, I'd only had one child.

And I'm like, oh, all children must love puzzles, you know. But then you learn where your child's going. For us, music was a big thing.

And so we wanted our children exposed to that. So we chose like a little children's choir at church that they could be a part of. And um a little uh a a a group where they um you know were involved at church with uh different activities and then uh maybe a sport and you know, library storytime was like our big thing.

That was also the time they had a sugar drink. That was when they had like juice, you know. So, you know, there's just different things that we don't make all the right decisions as parents But the thing is the choices we make, we need to feel like, hey, this is okay.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Lisa:
And I feel like even as an adult, you know, I literally I talk out loud to myself. You are like you'll come in the room and you're you're like you're talking to me But there are literally times I'm like Lisa, it's okay.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Lisa:
And I've even mentioned that to you in some of those moments where you might not be as receptive to it, you know, because of Because of the perfection part, you know. And then there have been other not so great times where you've been pursuing perfection and I've just busted out and all that giggles

Lisa:
We actually have a story about that on a bus going to Winnipeg, Canada. And that was not good.

Rick:
So the intentionality part that you mentioned. I think of the opposite of that. The opposite of intentionality.

Lisa:
And I was not giggling at you at that point. I was giggling at the situation.

Rick:
The intentionality opposite, I believe, is drift. And and so if if you're not strategically saying, All right, we're gonna be headed this way, you just kinda tend to drift and let just life kinda happen to you and I think that's why I love that.

Lisa:
You can put like a word to what I'm thinking. I need to have you on every program.

Rick:
No, no, you're gonna have some amazing guests. This is

Lisa:
No, I know. I love having conversations with people and that's part of what this is birth out of. Okay, so we're married, then we have children.

Um I wasn't really ready for children for a long time. You were used to you had like younger cousins and things. I had had no friends who or we had no friends, family, anyone who had had babies.

Like we were having a baby and I knew no one. I hadn't even babysat much. And so I was a little skittish about, you know, okay, I'm not ready, God.

But here's a big thing. I believe that when we talk to God And look to him. He does hear us and he will answer us.

And so we waited like seven and a half years. to have children and you were you were like you could get down with I saw you playing like with younger cousins and stuff. I'm like, oh that's so great and you know, but then we end up uh being in the middle of I was sick both pregnancies, really sick in bed.

It was very messy and literally messy because you you know, I don't want to get too graphic, but I was Not just nauseous, but throwing up everywhere, anywhere, and you were constantly cleaning up after me. Because if I cleaned up myself, I would throw up again. It was just and then I tried a different toothpaste It was just so and I felt like if anyone has seen that movie Wally with that little guy like cleaning after on like the ship they're on or whatever.

that was you. You were constantly like trying to clean up and And then it was harder the second time because then we had a toddler and I was expecting and you know that that was even harder to juggle and you know, ER visit and uh just different things. But you know, here's a takeaway.

I know I would have prayed for my children. I was praying for them. And I know I can have such a go, go, go, you know, um streak in me that I would have prayed for my children, but I think God really was like, you know what, Lisa, I'm gonna sideline you.

And yeah, and I literally what I felt like I couldn't even read at times. I I I just I I had a metallic taste in my mouth. I couldn't really eat the way I wanted to.

I I don't know if you remember like with our first, I had the whole thing out. Like I was gonna have the Stuff for the folic acid and of this and that and the next thing. That was all out the window.

It that was survival of how can I just make it through every day and I was like reading like how the baby was growing each week and all the things and that was my biggest hope like each week. Okay, now the baby's a grapefruit. Okay, now the baby's this, you know But then our second pregnancy, I got gestational diabetes and um our son, I only had one other child who was born.

We don't compare our children. But in this case I did, because our first was born red and crying. Pink and crying.

Rick:
This is what you want.

Lisa:
Yes. I but I didn't know, I just thought that was normal. Our next baby was born a little blue and not crying.

Lisa:
Mm-hmm.

Lisa:
And we had no idea when I got to stational diabetes, and because of me being so sick, a lot of people were praying for us. This always gets me. Because this is our son who's such a thinker.

And um he uh he was born with a cord around his neck. We did not know that. until um uh until we saw literally the video that night and you're like Lisa look at this and the doctor was unwrapping the cord from around his neck.

Because I had gestational diabetes, they knew about the cord And um sometimes I feel like I've seen this in so many people's lives. I believe it in our son's life and so many issues, no matter what it is, where God is like no further. And I believe with our son he he just was like, No further.

And um and he was okay, but that is not the case with everybody. We had friends who lost their baby. three weeks after he was born in utero because of the cord.

So I have never taken that for granted. And when we see the hand of God and sometimes it's not what we hope for, like I've referred to, but Um, you know, so those were hard moments, and then we did actually adopt our daughter from China, so which we had talked about years earlier. So Um, and there's a story with that, but that'll be on another another time.

But um I just love that that uh God prepared my heart even for you know, I knew I wanted to be a mom, but I you know, sometimes we feel like, okay, I literally we had been married I think a year and people were like, Oh, happy anniversary, when are you having children? And we're like, Whoa, the culture saying you know exactly.

Rick:
These are the expectations.

Lisa:
Back to what the pressure is. And sometimes we have to be like, you know what? That's not I just kinda sometimes we might need to say something kindly to someone of, you know, I but sometimes we just have to choose in our heart, no matter what other people are saying.

The voice that matters the most is what God is putting on my heart and what I dec what I choose for myself And what if you're married, what I choose what we choose as a couple, if you have children as a family, um, and not hearing all the pressure because it's too much. You know, it it just is too much. And I do think that leads to issues like we said anxiety, mental health and stuff.

So and it's okay to say it's okay and no, that's not how we're gonna do it.

Rick:
Yeah, you are remarkable um to go from I don't know that I want to have kids to then just deeply owning this role of mom that uh God, you know, put on your heart to deeply nurture uh your boys and uh your daughter. Um it's it's just been awesome to kind of watch you thrive

Lisa:
Parenting is always messy, but it's it's an adventure though, too.

Rick:
And you know, some are messier than others, and and and sometimes the mess kind of either drifts and fades away, and you're like, Oh, I can't believe that I was ever concerned about that. Uh but then there's other things that just kind of s you know, somebody dies that chapter that is is closed for forever. Um, you know, so I mean there's there's so much that we deal with uh throughout life.

Uh Uh here here's the verses that I picked out um uh because I could read these every day. It says uh Jesus said this. Therefore I tell you do not worry about your life, right?

And uh and I just I I love that picture. Do not worry. Um uh because we tend to worry a lot, right?

And uh Uh I love what the instead is. Instead of worrying, seek first his kingdom and his righteousness. And then all these things that we've been worried about, right?

I will be given to you as well. And uh therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Uh and I think I think for all of us that's really kind of where we gotta land, you know, that that in the midst of the messes of life, we really can't uh sit there and worry. God is So explicit in his word about that. And then this verse I could read over and over again every day, Philippians 4, 6-7.

Paul writes this, says, Do not be anxious. about anything. How many times are we anxious?

Lisa:
Oh, I have to tell myself that all the time. And there's no asterisk there. It's saying do not be anxious about anything, but it's like But God that diagnosis that I just got.

Or but my child. Or but I I like I've had times I haven't wanted to fly because we had some experiences that were not great on planes, like we're They couldn't land and you know, you were on a plane and called me one time when you and my dad like uh a tire blew out on takeoff and they had to dump fuel You know, there's stuff that I've literally said that before flight. When we went to bring our daughter home from China, I put the verse, um, I I I did not want to fly.

I we didn't know should we fly separately because we had two sons who were, you know, being left at home or like, but what if the plane goes down?

Lisa:
You know, it's like

Lisa:
We talk about a massive. No, exactly. We're like, oh so exact that that's exactly what we're thinking. And we did end up going together, but there was the verse about um that I I I the God led me to in uh Psalms about uh uh for I will bring your children from the east and you from the west and I'm like when I read that I literally wrote it down And I taped it on the airplane window, right under the airplane window, all the way to time back, you know, to bring her home. So I do want to finish the the verse.

Rick:
Yeah, but just you know, in instead of being anxious You know, uh uh scripture gives us uh what we need to do every time. It's like anything. So but here's how fish is in every situation By prayer and petition with thanksgiving.

All right, can we be thankful in our messes? All right. Uh God's word is full of being thankful no matter what the circumstance.

It says present your request to God. So this picture of just Physically, uh emotionally, saying, God, I can't handle this mess, but I'm gonna put it at your feet, I'm gonna give it to you, and I'm gonna release it. Because then what is the promise here?

I love this promise. The peace of God The peace of God, just settle on that for a second. The peace of God, which transcends all understanding, this doesn't make any earth sense.

Why God can offer us peace in the midst of this mess? Really?

Lisa:
Really?

Rick:
But that will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. That's a promise I believe is going to be a theme as you have the opportunity to talk with so many wonderful folks and guests. uh in the weeks and months to come. Lisa, I'm so proud of this opportunity for you to launch this podcast. Uh we're underway now, so uh episode number one is uh coming to a close. But wow what an exciting is where the mess is

Lisa:
I did not look at when we started. So I have no idea how long this is going. But I want to touch on something, one of the parenting moments.

It is kind of funny when you're Children are a little older and you're sitting around and laughing like we've d we would talk with my parents about things that worked and didn't work and you know, those are some of the most hilarious things. you know, to at least to us kids. My parents were laughing too, but I'm sure they were like you know, and then for us like a couple things.

We were intentional. I'd like even though we've done ex experiences we've had to be tight on budgets, you know, too. Like a family of five.

We couldn't eat out and like all the time and stuff. We're We had to be careful, you know, and so there was one trip where we were in Colorado. Oh, there are two Thanksgiving stories.

It's like And uh the ones our kids like they never talk about the ones where we're all just sitting around the table, the turkey's all perfect. The ones they remember are the ones that I just kinda wanna I I a part of me crawls under the table. Part of me is like, but they remember it.

It was memorable. But we were in Colorado and I was like We didn't have money to go drop on doing like a Thanksgiving buffet and where we were staying, we had cheaper accommodations and couldn't cook and then like The next year we were leaving, so uh we couldn't do uh, you know, the whole Thanksgiving thing. So I looked in the newspaper I'm like, okay, any Thanksgiving buffet is like $100 or it was like crazy.

And then I found a church.

Lisa:
It was offering a community Thanksgiving. So we went and it was kind of a you know, we just were at a table and then like other people at this church and You know, I've never been to before. I know in this little, you know, Colorado town and and to this day our kids are like Mom, like the even then they're like, is it okay where I'm like it was in the newspaper?

Rick:
We were invited.

Lisa:
I know And the people were so friendly to us and we love meeting new people.

Lisa:
Well, I don't know if our kids did, right, at that moment. But to this day they're they will just make that comment about, yeah, the one at that church When mom was trying to save money, but you know what? But we still had a memory.

The other one was when we were coming back from from my high school reunion and we decided to have the kids see some of uh New York City since I grew up in, you know, the area up there. And I was like, guys, we can get a great Thanksgiving dinner at a Bob Evans on the way home. So I found one while we're traveling home.

We stopped at this Bob Evans in Ohio. And it was the n the normal Bob Evans. It was a Bob Evans and to this day our kids at a gas station.

Rick:
It was. It was this.

Lisa:
people filling up their car.

Rick:
There's a half gas station, half Bob Evans, you know, not even a wall in between them.

Lisa:
I didn't know.

Rick:
And so that's how we had Thanksgiving that year.

Lisa:
But you know what And they remember that they do. And I share that because even in the things that are like messes they can end up being a treasured memory. And it all depends on how we spit.

Sometimes we just have to laugh and, you know, sometimes we might even like be in the corner and cry a little bit. But honestly It is it it can be all in how we respond to it in that moment. And that's part of thriving.

Not surviving. And I did have had a hard time sometimes in that part you shared that that those words from the Bible about with Thanksgiving. Like, don't be anxious for anything, but with Thanksgiving.

And there are times I'm like, I there's some people I see what they talk about with gratitude and I'm like, wow, you know That's so great. And and I there have been times I'm like Lisa and I literally I do believe sometimes we have to at least I have to I don't know if everyone works like this, but I encourage you to try it. So I literally have to drag my mind back and say, we're gonna do this You know, and and have that that thankfulness.

Rick:
So um I would I would just say, you know, um to viewers, listeners, um that hopefully if if you know, if your life is perfect and it's everything's set exactly what you want, then Probably connecting with Lisa on this podcast is not for you, right? So uh but if if you're like with the rest of us and life can be messy. And there's some situations where you're like, you know, uh uh yeah, just just life is messy.

Lisa:
Well sometimes we're not honest about the mess. We don't want to be forthright about it. There are friends I talk with and they don't um you know they they share uh or uh privately about their mess, but boy their story.

could touch a lot of other people. And I've seen other people who have stepped up and shared their story and it has affected other people. And for me, I tend to be a little more open about some of the mess.

Uh but I I do that because I know that's encouraged me hearing other people's stories. And there are times that I've walked through something and someone else's story walking through the I think our world is drawn to stories and we're drawn to the hope that we find in those stories and hear in those stories because someone else who's human like us And that's actually one of the things I love about Jesus is that God sent him to earth. He came to earth and was a human and walked through all the same crud we did, betrayal, abandonment, loss.

um uh poverty, uh lack of having food at time you know, just d all these different things. And I love that that he walked through this and so to hear another human story of fill in whatever the blank in their life, their mess, and that gives us hope.

Rick:
So So on behalf of the viewer who uh listeners watching right now I'm gonna ask um on behalf of them, what kinds of messes are you going to be tackling and where is this gonna head and why why should I tune in next time?

Lisa:
I hope to talk about messes ranging from uh the loss of a child, whether it's a miscarriage or a young adult child. I hope to talk about messes in parenting and marriage and uh messes of uh different people and from different walks of life. Uh Native America is a huge part of our lives.

I have a sister-in-law who's uh native and uh and uh niece and nephews and many friends and so that's something I really want to have some conversations about. What is it like to be a native young person or a native elder? They respect elders and they're ki just different things.

Um, there are different people from different perspectives around the world. I uh want to deal with different things. I know people talk about trigger warnings because they do trigger people.

It is so heartbreaking. But with suicide. Uh we've lost friends to suicide and so uh I I want to tackle things like that and not that we're gonna fix anything.

We can't fix it. I want to bring some uh hope. and uh just some conversation that I uh a friend told me several years ago people don't talk about some of these things.

Rick:
And sometimes they they they feel like they're alone, right? And maybe in this conversation.

Lisa:
That's why I'm like, you're not alone. Like I don't think we can say that enough that you're not alone. And sometimes we don't know what to say.

I don't know what to say to people like in the middle of a loss necessarily. But you know what? Sometimes it's just presence.

And for someone who likes to sometimes feel like I should say something. S I've had to learn sometimes just being there because that's been a lot for me, even is just being there. We don't always have to know what to say.

And but sometimes I I wanna talk about like people who've um uh been widowed. I have friends who have uh um you know a sibling or a child with uh Down syndrome or you know just different things. There's all kinds of things, uh all kinds of messes.

But the thing is Those messes have a lot of hope in them.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Lisa:
And that's what I'm excited to talk about and to share because I've been encouraged by hearing those stories of hope. And I really hope it can bring some encouragement to a whole lot of more people. So do you have anything else you want to share? 'Cause I I Yeah, this is great, Lisa. Thank you for allowing me to be on this.

Rick:
Well and I I I like that idea. You know, in the in the midst of the messes. How how can we thrive?

And and I know that you've got some great insights. I think uh your friends are gonna really enjoy um uh just just being with you. Um uh they they get to experience uh um something that I have the privilege of just being with you so often and hearing your voice.

Well and and I I hope we've kind of made it clear that we've had plenty of messes in our lives.

Lisa:
There's you know it's not been perfect

Rick:
uh in in many situations and we're still sorting through you know different things but um at the end of the day uh you know i

Lisa:
financial marriage, parenting, like all the things, relationships, um, you know, in-laws, like I I hope to have your mom on here at some point. But

Lisa:
Let me tell you, I've always said I'm the not classy daughter-in-law out of my other time because I just my poor mother-in-law, I'll say things to her.

Lisa:
Jesus. So You know, but I it's all the things. There's all kinds of things to that.

Mental health, that's uh just all kinds of things on there and I appreciate your encouragement also because you see me sometimes where it's like I feel like it's messy and who am I to even talk about messes? But then I'm like, oh wait. I am qualified with all the Netsis and so sure I can talk about medicine.

But it's the hope that other people can offer And bottom line, the hope that God can offer. I love these words that uh I actually read this morning in the Bible that say it is God who arms me with strength. and makes my way perfect.

Now that doesn't mean my life is perfect, but boy, I have to constantly look to God. That is an intentional choice I make. And I hope that encourages you as well because I do believe that having a relationship with God through his knowing his son Jesus has been my only anchor in life.

He gives me hope. He gives me joy. All the things our heart wants.

And desires. Jesus offers that and God offers that. And so through all the mess, that has been my anchor, and we've chosen that to be our anchor too.

But I do want to say a huge thank you to my husband Rick for being here, the very first one of Thrive in the Mess. And I look forward to probably having you back on at some point talking about some other mess, but I really hope you will join us again next time on Thrive in the Mess.