No More Shortcuts: From Messy to Healthy Communication in Marriage - Steve and Karen's Journey

Lisa:
You're still sitting here, no spoilers yet, but you are sitting here together, so that's kind of a big spoiler alert. But things could have been very different. Welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I'm your host Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm excited you're here.

Welcome to a no show. shame zone and a no-judgment zone, we really are all about talking about some of life's biggest messes and how can we have some practical help and hope walking through those. And today we are talking about messy marriages.

And so I'm thrilled to have two of my friends today. Steve and Karen with with me. Steve and Karen, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

And let's just jump into talking about some messes in marriage. Yeah.

Steve:
So first off, it's good to be here. Um and I I think that uh just uh one of the common things that happens to everyone, it happened to us, is you get You get married thinking of how much you have in common. Like, ah, we're so alike.

And it doesn't take very long until you figured out that we're not, the backgrounds, the family, whatever you come from, the issues that I have. Um you know, started bubbling out fairly quickly. And Karen was kind of the level headed, steady one.

And I was kind of the I like the illustration of there's a ski boat and there's a skier behind the boat. Karen's the ski boat, I'm the one back here just going from side. Going from side to side.

Um and so some of my um just the Um the brokenness that I had, uh, ways that I had tried to figure out how to make life work. So there was just really controlling things that I used, silent treatment, just all of the ways that we try to get people to act a certain way so that I can be okay, those started manifesting itself um just pretty quickly uh in our marriage and and relation so so for me it was managing distance. When she does something that I don't like, I'm gonna move away.

So she knows that this is something that she should not do. And um the lie that I had bought into was that she needed to be someone so that I could be okay. And the lie that she had bought into was she can actually do that.

She can she can actually be that person to me. So so we had kind of this weird Relationship that worked until we started getting healthy.

Lisa:
Right, wow, right. So how did that

Karen:
play out Karen you want to touch on well I I do I do and and thinking back through some of our history I mean I I like a story kind of from the beginning and we're we're jumping in where things kind of started to get messy. Yes. But Um, a little bit of background too.

We would have both both grown up in wonderful homes which um you know, ho homes where it was assumed that you're gonna you're gonna at least look for a Christian spouse, a believing spouse. So I d I know um some people in the past have asked, well how did how did that work out? Like did you did you know he he wasn't right with the Lord or did you know and I was like, no And we've talked about it.

I knew my parents knew they had some reservations, you know, when we first when we first met and and got together But um he was a great guy. He was a player very nice guy, you know. And I I was like, he's uh this this is a relationship that I definitely want to pursue Um it was we had rocky moments in our dating relationship because like he said, I I did I was wholeheartedly, um sincerely wanting to serve Jesus.

And I think probably that was some of it. The There were some things a a little bit off, but we we talked through some things and I did think that he was a believer, immature maybe, you know, but Of course. That's we we all can have those those moments.

And so my parents gave their blessing and we went ahead and and got married. Well getting into moving through some of those first years, things I don't went I don't know when things started to kind of pop up. There were there were a few indications, a few um uh things th where I would have wondered if you were telling the truth about some things, you know.

But nothing major, you know, there wasn't any major thing that was like, whoa, we have issues. I would say it's kind of slowly, gradually got got to the place where it was. But um when you're thinking about messy marriages, sometimes you can think about alcoholic or you know Beat to go.

Yes.

Steve:
Yes, it was it was a hidden life. building things that stand during a storm. So it's you know, building houses that last during hard times.

Lisa:
So the Bible actually talks about that building your house on the rock or building your house on sand.

Steve:
So in a marriage hard times are gonna come. What I was doing was building a house the easy way that looked like everything was gonna be fine. And then as soon as the hard times started coming, as soon as things about her, me, whatever started when there were just little things that graded, the house started cracking and crumbling because it was it was a house of cards.

It just wasn't built on anything built on anything solid. Um so yeah, I just I just had a lot had a lot of hidden things in my marriage stuff that she was suspicious that things weren't right. Um but I was planned apart, man.

I was, you know, involved

Karen:
Doing all the good things um and and just had a lot of a lot of front and there was a there was a great f great facade.

Steve:
Yeah. Yep.

Lisa:
Did you already have children at this point? Yes. You talked about, you know, on our wedding day, you're all pretty, he's all handsome, you're like till death do us part, things for health and all the things and we really don't want mess. We just want it to be calm and peaceful and uh but then things are hidden and you wonder, okay, is he maybe not I don't know if it was was he not telling the truth or just hiding something but let's go ahead and jump in. What are some of the hidden things?

Steve:
So let me go back and then you can do with this uh so so when I was younger, probably when I was around um Uh uh young, really young. I remember um we were asked at school this is such a small thing, but it's like this one little degree thing that got me headed in a certain direction. Um I was put on an honor roll and I wasn't supposed to be there.

They had gotten my test score wrong and I wasn't supposed to be there. Um but at that time I was on the social fringes. I was kind of the nerd of the class and I was like, I'm not going to bring this up.

I wanted to be there. I wanted to be um where all of the rest of the kids were at, and so I just didn't bring it up.

Lisa:
And you're the only one who knew.

Steve:
I was the only one that knew. And and so I didn't say anything. And I knew that I was supposed to, and I didn't say anything.

And then from from that point on, there was this downward um willing to be dishonest, to maintain, willing to take the easy route rather than doing the hard work. Well just willing to take the easy route to make people think well of me. And that just led into a lot of uh just everything.

Just a lot so a lot of dishonesty.

Lisa:
Um uh Isn't it interesting one moment in time really can shape us for for better or for worse? Like I've heard of little moments that

Steve:
Yes. So anyway, stealing money, lying. Just all the things that go along with that type of a lifestyle.

And the and that what went with that was just this ability to feel. Like it was so so it wasn't I didn't feel I didn't feel bad when I did bad things. I didn't really feel good when I did good things.

My it was just I felt empty inside of me.

Lisa:
And so with that whole So you weren't even shoving feelings down. Oh no, no, no.

Steve:
You just didn't feel flatlined away. I was flatlined. I didn't yeah.

So there's there was nothing there. Um And um going on through teenage years, then all of this hidden stuff in behind me with with some of the things you mentioned. uh taking money from my dad, um invoicing customers more than what I was supposed to invoice.

All of the all of those all of those types of things that You build up this bank that you think there's no way that I can make this right. Like I or it's such a huge thing. People, it's this is gonna destroy me.

if this ever comes out. Shame. There's just there's just shame.

Lisa:
Shame is a chain. It really is. It drops us.

Steve:
And then along came someone who had chosen a different a different path and I was attracted to it. I was like I uh she th there were things in her family that were more messy than were in my family, but they had something. There was connection and all of that. So I brought all of my issues and hidness into my marriage, knowing that what I was doing would someday probably be uncovered, but not feeling like I could do it. You know So that that was kind of the that was the that was my reality that we were living in is trying to stay hidden, but at the same time knowing that I wanted to be a good husband and a good father and trying to keep all of these balls up in the air while I'm living in the street.

Lisa:
And no one figure it out Right.

Steve:
No, I was complete. So so you know, being raised in a family of faith, I was really involved at church, choir director, just whatever church people do, I was all in on it because I had to keep up that facade but behind it was Just a lot of a lot of brokenness and hiddenness.

Karen:
And there were there were a few things over the years. Um I know I know there was a a video one time, something on the computer that I had seen and I and I confronted there was there was some of those things. When I came across those things, I confronted But when you when when you're lied to, you can say, well, that that doesn't make sense.

You can you can back somebody into a corner, or you can say Okay. I take your word for it. And and here's where my heart goes out to women in situations that that they are in those situations and it's really, really messy and it's really really hard.

In our situation, he was always still a good guy and nice to me. There was just there was the hiddenness, there was that brokenness. And and so there was a sense of those things getting sideways but um I knew something was a crush.

Lisa:
Yes.

Karen:
And so so in that way I didn't know I think how I I know that I didn't know to the extent of the brokenness and him really never having met Jesus until until that happened. And I don't we can get into that whenever um more of how that how that happened. But so there were things, there were indications over the years, but I never experienced you know, this a horrible situation. For that I'm I'm grateful. That was one of God's graces even during that time.

Lisa:
There are a lot of layers through This even of um uh you can grow up in church, but honestly only God can touch our heart You know, and so you were I d but we'll get to some of that with your story of that wasn't quite what was going on here because You know, yeah, with some of the hiding and and I do love that, you know, when you drag something into the light you can deal with it. Like I have closets that have spiders in the corner under stuff that I need to declutter. And until I drag it out of the closet, I'm not gonna be able to get rid of the, you know, spiders and whatever in there and the dust, dust bunnies, whatever.

And uh so let's drag somewhere out in the light. How did any of the well, first of all let's talk about what what are some of these Actions. You said you were a player.

How did that play out? Like we're talking about some things on the computer. Are we dealing with pornography here?

Steve:
And Yeah. So it was pornography. Um but here again the the What I was doing was trying to find an easy way to get something that I didn't want to do the hard work of bringing things to the light.

Karen:
So it's just um shortcuts.

Steve:
Yes. And so um I I I wanted to feel valued. I wanted to feel desired.

So what this looked like was so I'd go on trips for work and things like that. And it was going to the bars. It was um you know, this eye contact with other ladies knowing she sees me, I see her.

And it was that thing saying, I want to matter, I want to be desired, I want to be wanted. And so that just led me into um so it was um a dishonest um way of living life, but then also I would travel and I'd meet other ladies when I was when I was when I was traveling. So that was kind of the the core of what I was hiding was that whole um

Lisa:
The travel life.

Steve:
Right. And some online relationships that I think. Like when you think of the travel life, that said, well, whatever you think of when you think of that, that.

Yeah, that that's what that's what was being That that's what was being hidden. But th there's one thing I think that's important, Lisa, that I want to underline is one of the things that we So I'm just gonna be broad here and throw men, just throw men into this. We can think, maybe humans into this, we can think that it's some other person's job to keep me okay.

And so when as soon as as soon as I believe that that um so when I give my love to Karen in a way that she has the power to turn it off She can she can make me stop loving her. She can make me stop whatever it is. I am not loving her because of who I am.

I'm loving her because of who she is. So it's My love is dependent on her. My interaction and conversation is dependent on whether she is the type of person that I want to interact with at the moment.

So the way that it manifested itself, the way that some of this hiddenness came out was Things like the silent treatment. I'd come home when things weren't okay with me and she'd say something I didn't like. I'm like, all right then I'll just go work in the shop.

Alright, I'm good. And so I so I just I use distance as this weapon to say when you do this I will create distance, which is one of the things, speaking as a man that I've heard, that women like they want they want connection. Karen wants connection.

So I was using the thing she wants more than anything else and saying if you act a certain way, I'm gonna take away the oxygen that you breathe in our relationship. And so that was my lie was something outside of me. Other women.

Um pornography money, whatever it is, controls what what happens inside of me. And so I just played that card whatever it whatever whatever it looked like was things outside of me control my well-being, then all I had to do was control what was outside of me, including marriage relationships, which gets extremely unhealthy when I say I can be okay if I can control Karen. That is kind of the foundation for lots of really unhealthy things.

Yeah.

Lisa:
Wow. I want to there's a lot of different things, different directions to go. I wanna hear from the woman's perspective of the silent treatment. And the distance and how do you deal with that when you're like, okay, how am I going to get under anything and get to the heart of anything if there's you know, distance, a wall, he's not even available. Right, right.

Karen:
Great great question. I know, I know. So so

Lisa:
I mean how did that make you feel?

Karen:
Yes. Like I had I had my own set of of issues too and mine would have been more people pleasing. No. We could just do a whole other podcast with all of my issues.

So mine would have been I need his approval or oh no, he seems angry. Yes, I don't like conflict. Oh I don't like conflict.

Now as I've grown I am much, much better with conflict, much more direct. It's been so fun. I'm proud of you for asking.

Lisa:
I know No. I'm proud of you for even stepping up and asking like what was on the computer. Yes. Since you don't a peacemaker really doesn't want to go there. You just want to kind of ignore. Look away.

Karen:
And it is good to believe the best. I always I still I still do that. I mean, I still maintain that But at some point you can't bury your you should not bury your head in the sand and just look the other way on all these things.

But I had my own set of things that the Lord was wanting, needing to work on in me and were things I would say started to shift also for me is when I said I I won't allow you to control like your your silent treatment or the way that you are interacting with me right now to make me do a certain thing I I quit doing that. I think as I got my identity in Christ more secure and solid, I stopped needing to have his approval so badly. Right.

And it's great to have and in a healthy marriage, you should, you know, you should can maybe kind of expect that But if it's not it it needs to be in its proper order and I felt like the Lord kind of shifted those things and arranged those those things to where I really did start to become okay to say, well I don't think that that this is on me. Now we can have a conversation. If there's something that we need to talk about, we can talk about it.

But I will not be manipulated and controlled by your silent treatment. And so those are the ways really that it got messy and hurtful. That distance and kind of the coldness, the indifference, some of those things.

You know, I talked about how it was it was a mercy and a grace that I didn't experience some of the other things But that gets old. That feels empty. Very.

And that part is just not life. It's not alive and growing. It's just like what's what's wrong?

Where are we stuck? Um those those kinds of things. So yeah, in in that way with trying to deal with that it was it was me taking some ownership of my own issue of of validation.

Yes.

Lisa:
Yes yes. Isn't it interesting both of you We're seeking validation. We all are.

We're all like validate me, you know. Completely just please validate me of You know, when you park somewhere in a parking garage, you gotta validate your ticket or whatever. And it's like, can you validate me whether it's a teacher, a boyfriend, a girlfriend?

So much. Uh even our children, uh your husband, your wife, your boss, your co-worker, it just it it never ends until we say, Okay. God made me.

Yes. That's unvaluable just because I am made by him and for him. And the Bible is full of all that how valuable we are.

So foundational. He like celebrates over us and dances over, sings over us, and I you know, it's just beautiful what the Bible says about that. And but here we are, each of us, until we get to that point.

And sometimes it doesn't happen before marriage and it can And I you know, we're still like validate me and he was not validating you. He's instead you're like you validate me and he's like, Can the women in the bars validate me?

Steve:
is when one person wants health in a marriage and one person doesn't. Things get worse before they get better. Because as soon as she tells me, oh, like in a very Um, good tone. Oh, that's not mine to carry.

Karen:
I'm like, Well you have for so many years.

Steve:
Like, what in the world?

Karen:
Yeah.

Steve:
Like, yes, it is yours to carry. And so all of a sudden what I do what I know how to do, which is create distance, which is the exact same thing. that she says, well if I start not caring, he's gonna create more distance, which I don't want, which is an invitation into this, you know, codependency, whatever you want to call it.

Right. So it's so when one person so if there's I I feel for people who there is a wife that hungers for health and there's a husband that doesn't care. Because for her to get healthy She first has to understand that she can't play God to her husband.

She can't make him okay If you are, you're just a reflection of everyone else around you and you're losing your voice as a daughter of the king, you are saying the only voice that matters is my husband's is mine. And so Karen got healthier and for a while it got a little more it got a little more confrontational. Um we're not yellers, none of that.

But I was just like, all right then. I can make friends easily. I'll go get other friends.

Yeah. It's just my that's what that's what happened for a little bit. The the thing that's really cool, I so I'm a I'm a a person of faith, so I believe what I believe what the Bible says.

But but there's there's passages in scripture And what I came into contact with is I was used to people telling me where I was wrong and what needed to change. I grew up in church. That's what I mean that that's kind of But um what I wasn't familiar with is someone who accepted me and just showed me.

And there's a there's a passage in 1 Peter 3. that talks about um this dynamic of unhealthy men and christian women. And it's that what what they what it says, and I just I just feel this so deeply.

What that passage basically says is you're not gonna nag him into the kingdom. You know. And so what she showed me was something that I wanted.

It wasn't about her saying you're doing this and you're this stop, stop, stop, stop, you're failing, failing. It wasn't that She just, there's a longing that each one of us has in our heart to be who just to be a person that impacts people well around us and to move things forward. And And I want to be a builder.

That's in each one of us. And so I came. She showed me what the fulfilling of that longing could look like if I would step into it.

And over time, years and years of marriage, just That that love just wore me down. Um what a beautiful phrase.

Lisa:
The love wore you down. Yeah. You lived it even when you must have been hurting and reeling from all of that.

Yeah. How do you Live that out. If you're someone who's walking through this or like my husband is in the garage right now, you know, silent treatment.

How do you walk through that and still choose to love that person that day when they're not interested. You guys are wonderful story fo well, you're still sitting here, no spoilers yet, but you are sitting here together. So that's kind of a big spoiler alert.

But things could have been very different. Yeah. So how do you walk through today when how did you get up and you're like, I don't know how this is gonna go?

Is he talking to me? Is he warm to me? Is he on a trip?

What is he doing? What am I gonna find on the computer?

Karen:
Yeah That my my heart goes out so much to to women and men, but I'm speaking to women here who's who are in that situation. I have so many friends who have experienced that and it is It is so difficult. Uh but but my for me, it is getting yourself before the Lord and just like the identity piece that I talked about earlier.

To have him be your foundation, to know and to get that settled. I think that's the only way that that I could say, Jesus is is enough for me. And I have some margin and grace to work to to walk out the way that he says to love others, the patience that it takes, the grace that it takes to once again.

Be what I'm supposed to be, respond the way I'm supposed to respond, without getting drawn into your spouse's mess or their their sins and there's not I'm there's not a formula. There's not a do this, this, this, and then this will happen. I wish it's it's not there's so much mystery even in how our story changed, I look back and I would love to guarantee that or say, well, this is how God works in every situation.

I'm confident God is working. In your situation, but it there's a lot of mystery in how those things happen. But just to settle yourself back again into the love of God and trust that He is working things out.

Yeah, that that's um that's that's what I think got me through. Um and once once again, I did not know, and this is a mercy and a grace, and I readily acknowledge this, there's there's other women's stories who are different. I did not know the extent of what all was going on until, you know, he came clean on some of those things.

So I it could have been a lot worse for me In those years, I knew there were some things and there was the unsettled sense. But as far as knowing the depth of of some of that stuff, I d I didn't. And so I am I'm grateful for that. But yes, there was a lot of just continuing to stay faithful and steadfast.

Lisa:
Yeah. Sometimes not knowing can help in the moment. Yeah.

And I now Some people are like caring good for you. I'm glad God helped you. But I know you're not saying that as a traite thing of God will help you.

That you lived that and in the moment you must have chosen that That was a choice. What would you say to someone who's like, uh, you know, I I'm not interested in God at all? Um, I'd would you have been able to make it without looking to God.

That's a painful place to wake up every day.

Karen:
It it is. And I I think no. I I think I don't I don't know how How I would do that. I would say just then go start with Jesus.

Go, you must. Like you you must go um start with him. Find him, find him to be.

Your husband can't ever be to you. He's supposed to be to you what a what a husband or a spouse is supposed to be. He cannot be Jesus to you.

Jesus is the thing. A husband-wife relationship is a wonderful gift. It can be very, very painful, but Jesus Is the one that won't let you down.

He's the one that won't be unfaithful to you. You can rely on him. St start start there.

Hosea dealing with unfaithful. Yes.

Lisa:
You know, all of it it's an an amazing Uh that that's in the Bible. No, no. And I you know, it's interesting as you were talking it came back to me how in our younger years of Rick and I being married, I remember thinking, Oh, I d you know, I came to a point where I realized my husband was not the one who gave me peace or calm in the middle of whatever. Like I'm like I I I respect his perspective and his words, but he can't get inside and give me that peace and calm.

And I did come to a point where I was like I I knew that, but it really and sometimes where we can have knowledge like, oh, God can help me. Yay, you know. Yeah.

But it it really gets meat on the bones when you're like, okay, God is my only choice right now and he should have been my first choice. So good. Yes.

this i I know this now. Like I can know God gives me peace, but really God gave me peace, not my husband, because you think, Well this person is here in flesh with me and should be able to give me that calm and peace or whatever. In a m e even in a marriage or whatever relationship, even a friendship or something, but only God can truly give that pe that's why I'll even pray for peace for other people because nothing I can be sitting on the beach.

Well first of all that's not totally peaceful because I don't like the sand getting everywhere. Honestly, I'll be sitting on a chair near the beach and like just kinda Drinking my little lime bubbly. I you know, I love the sparkling water stuff and you know, just reading a nice book and calm.

and peaceful, that doesn't give me peace. But in certain whatever situation it doesn't give us peace. So hearing you say that was very brought that

Karen:
Yes, but it can be so disruptive along the way. I know and speaking for myself and then and others out there It is nice to be at that place when you're here and then you need to get over here. It's a lovely thought, and you're hearing me testify to that that it is Such like in my mind the only place to really start from then or when you get there and you say, I truly do need Jesus The other things are wonderful, but they are not the necessity.

They are not the thing. It's very, very disruptive when you have had patterns, habits. your whole life that have told you, I must have this, this, this, this, I must have this person's approval.

I must have that's a really rough road to get those things shifted and changed. And you know, on the path to saying more and more Jesus really is. I I I know that I experience him as being the thing.

So acknowledging that it's it's not easy And it's disruptive, but it is worth it to get there.

Lisa:
Okay, hearing you say that, I know we're we have uh a lot of other trails we're gonna be going down with this, but two of them. How do you disrupt the silent treatment and how do you disrupt finding validation in your spouse? Like you or or other people.

You were looking for validation, other women, you're looking for validation in your has been how do you disrupt that pattern? Let's start with that one. How do you disrupt finding validation somewhere else?

Steve:
I think first of all is the awareness that what I'm doing right now isn't working. The way you're doing it now, how's it working out for you? And if you're like, oh, my life is full.

I feel, I feel good. Um I I think that's the realization. Where you came back, you asked Karen th about about the power of of wh or like how do you disrupt you you're um Mr. Ron Says something that there's he made this statement.

I think he may have been quoting someone else, but it may come from him because he says Many, many. You're dad. Many, many quotable things.

Yes. But he he he said you you get your ticket when the train comes in.

Lisa:
Right.

Steve:
On the front end these things look huge. But you don't have power for Wednesday until Wednesday morning. So when you're saying how in the world you don't have to live three weeks in the future.

All you have to say is in this moment what I what I'm what I had doesn't work And like, oh thank you. So just let go of your way of doing things. There's a better way of doing things.

Karen:
Yeah. That's that's that that's the the motivation often. Yes.

Maybe the only motivation? To actually do the hard work then of allowing yourself to learn new things, to go with Jesus on this different road that's so unfamiliar. It's it's new terrain.

And it's It's it's good and he's promised to go with you on those on those ways of learning learning how to be secure in him. Learning how I know it sounds so simplistic and I just keep coming back to it. Some people will say that.

Lisa:
That sounds so overly simplified.

Steve:
Yes, but it's super but it's not complicated.

Lisa:
It's real right.

Steve:
It's hard. It's not easy. Right.

But it's not complicated. I I think of it like personality profiles. When I figure out, oh Lisa is this way.

Sh you know, the reason that she has this bubbly personality is because she's been given this type of a you know, whatever personality profile you're looking at That tells you why they act like they do. That doesn't give you the power to interact well with them. That's where like when you talk about power, the saying, um, so you can figure out There's some things that are wrong.

Oh, here's why I know this person is doing that. Here's why I know that they're coming to me for their acceptance. But to interact with that person in a grace-filled way, that's where I think If you are trying to do this without either community around you encouraging you, speaking to who you really are, um then, or for me as a man of faith, the the the Holy Spirit's power inside of me that gives me the grace, the power to interact that way, I think what you try to do is self-help.

And and self-help got you to where you are now. That that's that's why you are where you are is because you tried to help yourself instead of stepping outside.

Lisa:
Well Okay, I there's something you said that I want to jump in on. So, but I do want to jump back to something else also, but that's part of the mess. We'll we'll just kind of bounce around.

Um Community is it sounds very important, but why in the world would you want to share this with anybody? You you know, in the middle of it, I I I How did that come out? Did other people know?

You know, in a marriage, so men so much of the time, any mess, we feel like we're alone. Oh yeah. And in a marriage, it's like Do you want your friends to know?

Your parents, your family, your children? Some people I know who have walked through some hard messes, their children don't know what they've walked through. But they have moved on in a healthy marriage, you know, from then on.

So how do you find community that isn't all out you need to leave him, ditch him, and how do you find community that's like

Steve:
So here here's what I think. Um in some ways I was stepping on the episode. from one community into the next.

And the interim, that gap that says I don't have people, that's that's kind of that that could be kind of a scary gap. What I was familiar with I could relate with people who were hiding things or or this religious facade that says, tell me everything is okay, make it look like it's okay and we're good. So there's this whole crowd then that says, okay, if you're gonna be real, this makes me uncomfortable I don't know how to handle it, but as soon as you realize oh there's a whole other crowd.

There's a whole other community that says, I'm so glad that you shared Here's what my journey has been like. No one no one doesn't have elements of brokenness within their friendship and deep relationship. depends on vulnerability.

So when I can be vulnerable with someone, say, here's my story. This is and and and since then I'm not saying so I I I Karen led me to the Lord. I gave up when I was 34 36.

Since then, it's not all it's not all just roses. It's not like a like it's not like a switch flips. Um, but you find people who look at you and say, um What this what this situation needs is Lisa at 100%.

We don't need you filtered. You bring all of you. We love all of you.

You are a and and you you start finding people who are trying to uncover what's the real person inside of you. And so it's the same way with you get your ticket when the train comes in. It's it's those friends will surround you.

You will get a friend group then that celebrates the real part of you um just like you had friends groups that that celebrated the fake part of you but there there are there's community out there they will you will find them they will find you but I think it begins with this awareness that says I want freedom. I'm tired of being fake. I'm tired of being fake.

And as soon as you say I'm willing to do whatever it takes to experience something different, I think then that's when stuff can happen.

Karen:
And and I know there the the it I I've I've thought through this because people have asked us already. So what did how what what made you decide to Give your life to the Lord. What made you decide to change?

How did that happen? How can I make my husband do that? That's kind of what's underneath it.

Can't make anyone do anything. And that's why I s I am I I am so hopeful. This is why I'm so hopeful.

It was so unlikely that at age I can't do the math right now, but whatever age you were, 34, 36 in in 2011 Uh we were not at a revival meeting.

Steve:
No.

Karen:
We were not at any kind of religious service. It was it was a very normal day and you called me And was like, I need to talk to you about some things tonight. I'm like, okay, okay.

Um I think I had there was you you had said there were some people at our house. I can't remember all the details. But that was un that was really kind of unlikely.

Anytime th that somebody comes to Jesus, it uh i the good people or the bad people like what what a miracle by good people I mean people like me who tried to do the right things and all of that. It's really unlikely that that you're gonna lay down your own way. Until Jesus steps in and then it it all changes.

So m I have so much hope for people who wait forty years to give themselves to the Lord or who say no no no no no and then one day they say yes. It changes and so I I I that's that's how it that's how it was and I just I just have so much Hope don't don't give up praying for someone that you want desperately to know the Lord. And this is back al along the that another question that you had asked earlier.

Um Satan lies. He's he that's that's who he is. He he lies.

And the lie one of the lies that irritates me the most is that you you cannot uncover this. You absolutely can't. The the the barrier To being vulnerable, the barrier to coming to somebody that you love and saying, Hey, I really messed up here. Like really, really pretty badly.

He he he convinces you that Whatever it is, it will not be worth it. You will you will not. People will look at you a certain way.

Some of them might. You know, that's that that could be the case. But the freedom that you find on the other side of that is worth Every every word that you have to say to to make things right or to confess or just to start that.

Like you said earlier, bring the things to the light. And that's that is what you were willing to do. Jesus called called you, j you you answered, and and then then is when you can start when you have that vulnerability then you can start doing whatever repair needs to be done and you can start doing relational yeah.

You can start moving forward then. But that initial step of saying I will. I will be bold and I will be courageous and I will go humble myself and I will be vulnerable.

That is you that that's a first step that I think You know, that it just it has to happen. And the reason that Satan fights against it so much is because it is so powerful in starting out building rebuilding back relationships, your relationship with God, confessing and repenting, you know, is what it is.

Lisa:
I love hearing some of these um helpful tips of find community. You will find community either way, of the friends who supported you in your fake life you said and your friends who will support you in your I want a healthy marriage life. I'm not looking for validation somewhere else.

So community is very important. I like what you said about choosing not to believe. lies.

Yes. And also choosing to not give up and not give up praying for the other person because it's real easy I d honestly, how did you not or maybe you did to some extent, how do you not let bitterness creep in when you are You know something's not right. There's silent treatment.

I did he sleep somewhere else when the silent treatment was going on, or is he crawling back into bed and there's that imaginary wall there.

Karen:
We pretty much kept on kept on relating. There wasn't there there wasn't big, huge distance. I wasn't like, okay That's it.

It was emotional distance. Yes. Not not physical.

But as I kept getting confident in in my position in Jesus, it was much easier. This goes back to a question you had asked earlier I in in how what do you do when somebody gives you the silent treatment or in those years, yes.

Lisa:
And break that pattern.

Karen:
Yes. For me, it was I don't have to enter that same animation. I don't have to get drawn into that.

I am who I am. I can speak calmly. I can be kind.

I need to be kind in my tone. And this this for me comes from from Jesus. It comes that strength comes from the Holy Spirit.

But to say, you know, I'm really sorry that that you feel that way about this, but um we can have a conversation. I don't mind to have a conversation, but I'm I'm not gonna relate when this is going on. I just I just say no, this is not I'll I'll stay me, I'll stay happy, I will stay calm as as much as I can.

I will not get pulled into this. And that's really irritating.

Steve:
Yeah.

Karen:
Can be really irritating and disrupting to that unhealthy pattern, but I think for us that's kind of how it started.

Lisa:
How does that make you feel with the silent treatment and how do you disrupt that? Like you you Uh you both have been talking about it. Never happened again. I have to tell you, I absolutely love you have a date where you know things changed. Yes.

Karen:
You know, I even have a receipt. I brought my receipt along. Like receipt for this is For Colton's. We went to Coltons.

Oh I think that's a good idea. Oh my god. And and I was like I I better I better mark I know what the date was and and all of that.

Like yes. Anyway, that's a good idea.

Steve:
So I wanna say more about that. I love the so the the tips part. What what um uh what can we do to to disrupt some of that?

One of the things that and here again I come back to saying The issue isn't knowing what to do, it's having the power to do it. Most of us guys know what the right thing is to do. We just in the moment don't have the power or or the will to actually do it.

So one of the things that I think was super helpful for me, this was this was after things had changed in our marriage was my commitment was um I'm not gonna lean away anymore. By by leaning away, I mean it's a thing when you're driving. She says something and all of a sudden It's just different.

You can feel it there. So what I did a few times, and it would probably be good to circle back to more of this again, is I would tell her the emotion that was coming up inside of me. So she would say something.

And instead of leaning away, I would say, Hey, you just said this and this is what I'm feeling. Why do I feel that? So that is a yes that that is a way that you can de-escalate the tension and begin to actually but you have you have to want health before you'll do that.

Lisa:
Did you used to walk away and go to the another room? Instead now you stand there. And you're like, I feel this now.

Yes. Why am I feeling it? Yeah, yeah.

Steve:
There's this invitation to create distance, to just lean away, to say, okay, we're done. That that was just it. And I I so Bringing those things to the light and just saying, hey, all of a sudden, did you feel this?

I felt this. You name it. Yeah, there's this invitation.

So I think commitment to me, loving well says I'm not gonna lean away. I will never create space. I I stay in.

And then what that allows her to do is act out, work wrestle through things, because she knows that our distance isn't controlled by how she behaves. I'm here. I'm I will always lean in.

So um Lisa knows that you can be immature, you can wrestle with things. Rick's not going anywhere. And that is one of the most secure things in a in a few years.

Karen:
My children do too.

Lisa:
I'm the least immature of the whole family. But yes, that's powerful.

Steve:
When you when you have a fear of knowing that if I'm real, that person's gonna lean away. Um it's it's huge. That is a huge game changer that for couples for a man to look into the eyes of his wife and say, I will never lean away from you.

That is like this. Oh man. And then you can start verbalizing.

Oh, I have an in I'm feeling it. What is this? Do you feel it?

It's coming up. And all of a sudden the power seeps out. The negative power seeps out of that situation.

Because now you're talking about it and ugly things grow in the dark. And so when you expose them, they lose their power.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Karen:
Right. So true. What what you had said earlier too about the smallest turn.

And I've I've been pondering this over the last few weeks too. We sometimes think it has to be something big and and great, but what has worked For the two of us since that as we have rebuilt and as we keep building, these things we want to lean away. We we we're normal.

We have got these things that that go on.

Lisa:
And even if we don't want to feel hooky door with our person when we've you hurt me and there's that innate tendency of We were honest about that.

Karen:
Right. You know, and so that that stuff happens, but what has worked, what has what has kept us continuing to to stay connected and come back and lean in is is just the smallest turn sometimes. But instead You're like, what okay, now what what did you actually mean by that?

It it it takes and then the other person softens just a bit. And then instead of having a conversation where you have driven apart Right. Slowly you can feel yourself, you can feel you're coming back together.

It's really is the little little turns sometimes that that keep you together and that make the biggest difference.

Lisa:
I really like that because sometimes it feels better to be snark snarky. It's like, oh I got a little blow in there when I'm hurting. I you know, I we recover.

To say that that that choice, that little turn And it probably in that moment it sounds like it takes, you know. Humility. Yes Stop a second and then say what do you mean by that?

I like that question.

Karen:
That's really and if I'd be giving somebody something some handles, something practical. Yes, I can say go spend an hour praying about this to Jesus. I'm like, yes, maybe that too. But some of those little things, those little tiny decisions They accumulate over time and and make just tremendously good things happen in a relationship.

Lisa:
And it creates a new pattern. Yes. Like I really like that word.

I'm really grabbing on to that disrupt Disruptive, but then how do you disrupt some of those patterns? So okay, I love the help that that we've talked about disrupting even the silent treatment. Um Is Steve your choices of instead acknowledging what you're feeling um and not just disappearing and even what you're saying of choosing It's a choice to not be snarky or to be snarky.

Yep. And just that little little change there even and even disrupting uh you know, changing how we think of who we are that that whole other thread with validation and and even thinking of who am I because in the middle of a marriage our insecurities are always going to rise to the top, you know, when in a relationship with with someone else. So okay, so we've dealt with some things.

Well, again, I thank each of you so much for being here for taking time to share your story and just be open and willing to discuss this particular mess and the messes of marriage. So friend, if you have walked through what Steve and Karen have talked about, about uh patterns in marriage, whether it's the silent treatment or even not really knowing who you are and dealing with some of these different issues and messes in marriage. I hope you're leaving today encouraged seeing some hope and some ways to have some practical help in your marriage today uh with your husband or with your wife and if you are like I don't have that hope that Steve and Karen were talking about with having a relationship with God.

You can totally just cry out to Jesus today and just say, I am so sorry for going my way And I really want to turn and go your way. And switching my way to God's way has changed everything in my own life as well. And as you've seen in Steve and Karen's life also And friend, you can have that relationship with God, and he can really transform every single part of your heart.

and life and yes, even a broken marriage. If you'd like to go to thriveinthemess. com, there's some information there that can help about choosing.

that relationship. So friend, I hope you're leaving encouraged and next time join us on Thrive in the Mess.