“God, where were you?” - Hope After Fear & Sexual Abuse, with Dino and Nanette

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend welcome to thrive in the mess I am so excited to have two very special friends of mine here Dino and Nanette I am thrilled you're here And I just want to kind of jump in and talk about some of the messes in your life because we're talking about thriving in the mess and Already we haven't been thriving a whole lot.

I knocked over all the waters on the table. So we uh we're already off to a rocking star with with this. But and Dino, you have a t shirt.

I don't know why you wore it on the day I had you on My podcast it says life is tough. Is that like the second part? I'm trying not to take it personally that life is tough being on Lisa's podcast.

But I I have known you guys a long time. It's been over thirty years, so and we're still young at heart, so that keeps us going and uh but uh but yeah I kinda want to jump in because Nanette I know over the year years ago I kinda want to talk about your story before you ever met Dino And can you just kinda talk a little bit about what your childhood was like?

Nanette:
Well, um, yeah, I grew up in a home w of sev eight siblings and uh I'm the last of all of 'em. That's a baby. Yeah.

Last of eight. Yeah. And uh so my home life I was really um looking for hope.

I think that's the word I could use. And I don't my home life was um You know, we d we didn't have a lot of money, so uh my family, my mom and dad were always borrowing money from the trading posts, and it would just seem like it was this never ending cycle and sometimes we had a hard time uh they had a hard time putting food on the table and so I remember eating tortillas with met uh mustard on it. So and so mm but also, you know, just uh as I've gotten older I um I saw a lot of things that um that made me feel like, wow, I I wanna be loved.

I wanna w you know, is this what life is? I don't know why at ten years old I was just really questioning things and so yeah, I saw, you know, my I saw violence in the home, you know, abuse, um, families uh not getting a family members not getting along, um, but also alcohol in the home and pornography in the home and uh but also uh uh I would say abuse like molestation and things like that I started to see later on in as I got older. Uh so yeah my and also uh my uncle was a medicine man so I saw a lot of spiritual activity.

you know, shapeshifters and uh what we call skinwalkers in that time. So there's I grew up with a lot of fear and felt very hopeless and well, what was the purpose? Um, in life, uh like I said, at ten years old, those were my questions and what I was seeing.

Lisa:
So Wow. And uh so in the middle of all that, what out of some of those different events or people helped shape your life? Like you're having some pretty deep thoughts at age ten that you know about fear, wanting hope, what's the purpose, you know, those kinds of things.

But are there some things that help shape your life in the middle of all that Um by shaping, what do you mean by Just that might maybe impacted you? Are there any people or situations that maybe impacted you during that time? Um for better or for worse.

You mentioned some.

Nanette:
I think my dad, even though he he had a lot of issues in his life. Um he's he was very much an encourager. He he would tell me you know, don't do that, that you know, if you go down that path, you know, because we went to a lot of ceremonies like um and uh my my dad was you know just wanted me to stay home and Uh so yeah, but he encouraged me in school and like to to work hard in school and even though there was uh eight girls and one boy, he he really had us do a lot of work.

I think that building, that work, um, being a hard worker came from him. And but also he he was a very social uh person. He would talk to anybody on on you know on at the gas station or but he had he knew Jesus um himself and he did um some work for the church.

It was a Christian Reformed church. He he would interpret the gospel um from English to Navajo.

Lisa:
So Oh wow. And we haven't said you grew up on the Navajo Reservation. So that's some of the experiences and all.

Um so one day you went and did laundry. Mm-hmm. Can you share a little why is that a big deal?

So well, we were watching our journey.

Nanette:
I got well described, no. Um I uh in our family we I think fifteen or twenty years ago we have running water now. But since, you know, I'm what, fifty-seven and Growing up we didn't have running water and but we did have electricity. So I mean I would hitchhike with my mom sometimes carrying a bag of clothes all the way to Gallup, which is like twenty miles from where I live down two well.

So and I I don't know, I as at ten years old, I I just um had I wanted hope and I wanted love. And and when I was at that laundromat, ten years old, I would go and look in the laundromats for chick tracks and and these tracks really showed um how people were lost. Little booklet.

Yeah, little booklets. They just showed real stories of what I saw. you know through my eyes at ten years old like people would walk the streets of Gallup, they're addicted to alcohol and they face the same things.

You know, if my relatives, you know, they're just this ongoing cycle that I felt of hopelessness. And um so when I was ten I had I don't know, maybe five to ten tracks in my hand.

Lisa:
I would just read 'em, read 'em and waiting for the laundry to be done.

Nanette:
Yeah, waiting, yeah. And uh so it was at that point I just um And the Lord really spoke to my heart about, you know, the hope comes from him. I just saw in these tracks the transform life of these people in these tracks and how Christ transformed them and the power that God has to transform us and and to I saw hope come out of these people after they got saved in these tracks and I'm like, Jesus, I I knew it always had on there admit you're a sinner.

I'm like Okay, that's the first thing I need to to do is to know that I am. I I've sinned. I could I was little and thinking, okay, I stole that and I said that, you know, uh we know when we've done something wrong.

We're like even a toddler. So, yeah, and and that's where I saw my own sin and and that what I saw Jesus do for me and I I believe what he did on that cross for me. And I told him, you know, wash me clean by your blood and you know I believe what you did on that cross and come into my life.

And that's the day I began to understand hope for the first time.

Lisa:
You weren't just washing clothes that day. You had your heart washed. That's amazing.

I never thought of it that way, but wow. So what difference has Jesus made? Like you painted a whole bunch of stuff that was in your home and you're the baby, so the baby doesn't get a lot of say in how things go on in a house.

You know, I think of my youngest brother. We joke that there were fewer pictures of him among all and he's not in as many videos, the home movies with like no sound, but so being the baby in your house and you're like, okay, wow, I I was that just kind of a one time thing or did you feel a change in her life? Like what difference did Jesus make?

Nanette:
I felt the change. I felt I felt him coming that day. that uh his presence and I just could not shake it.

It's like and yeah, so I I went to school and I just remember after that time, I don't know, I cussed the boy out and the Holy Spirit told me, which I didn't know was the Holy Spirit until I started reading the Bible. um that it was wrong. And I I knew God's presence and I knew his voice.

He was helping me to know his voice. So um very um life changing. So I was always listening and always uh like going to school, like God help me to n to know what I need to do or Like going to church.

I'm like, seventh grade, I'm like, God's telling me to go to ch you need to go to church and I'm like so I went to a Mormon church and I'm like Um, and I just didn't feel right. The Holy Spirit just helped me to to realize, you know, this is not the place I want you. And so I um down the road my we didn't have a good truck, so or there's always something wrong with it.

And uh but I knew how That sounds like the Fres. Yeah.

Lisa:
I'm sorry, I think of the movie Smoke Signals. Yeah. Where there the girls are having uh the time of their lives. I picture that would be you and me, like there are certain people we'd be in the front seat and Dino can you picture this and we're driving backwards?

Dino:
Oh yeah.

Nanette:
You and I would be sitting in the back throwing mud at each other or something.

Lisa:
But the car only goes backwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that movie and it's on the res, but it's just So what happened? So you didn't have the truck working, so we do have to go.

Nanette:
What I I just felt compelled to to go to church and I remember I put on my best dress or whatever and uh Um, I walked outside and was gonna hitchhike six miles, seven miles down. In your dress. In my dress.

And so I my mom ran after me. She goes, Where where you going? I'm like, I wanna go to church.

And so she goes, No, y somebody might take you. And I and I I stayed home but but I could see the real relationship that God was working in my heart and and he was real and powerful and so yeah he He kinda just led me and taught me for many years until I went to a place called Broken Air Bible Ranch.

Lisa:
Oh wow.

Nanette:
So

Lisa:
And you guys have poured into people's lives ever since too. So Nanette, okay, you saw Jesus in your life. Did that change anything at home for you?

Nanette:
Um yes, uh I remembered going uh to Broken Arrow when I was thirteen And uh there I learned about reading my Bible, praying, and witnessing. And uh I was there for a week. And what do you mean by witnessing?

Witnessing, like telling others about Jesus and uh that you found yeah uh Uh just I was so hungry for God's word and thirsty. And so when they told me to read my Bible, I was I was drinking Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. It was just I would spend time um with Jesus at night.

I don't know why it was just always at night. Um But there I started to grow and I started to uh realize um how what what it means to walk in the light and and realizing that um going home um with Jesus and my family. Well there was Jesus hung on the cross and he said, Father, forgive them for they know what they're doing.

I realized that a lot of my family members didn't know Jesus and they were in darkness. And and they they said some things to me that were really um like, Don't hang around her, she's brainwashed by the church and So I'm about the only one following Jesus till this day in my family, but having Christ and wanting them to know the hope. Which they've heard about before because I'm the last, so they heard a lot from my dad, I think.

But but they le our family left the church and Um, so I really didn't grow up with the knowledge of, you know, having to go to church and stuff like that.

Lisa:
And how old were you when you lost your dad? I was uh um nineteen. Nineteen, okay.

I know I never met him, but I did meet your mom. Can you tell us a little bit about your mom? You care for her.

She's older and amazing lady. She's just worked hard her whole life.

Nanette:
My mom, yeah, very much um just a hard worker. Uh she cared for us. She could have left my dad and because my dad was very abusive to her and but She stayed and I'm so glad that they I mean they stayed together, but still could see that um not knowing how to As y you know, this thrive in the mess.

How do you thrive in such a place where, you know, your parents are abusive to each other? And uh just what I saw, like I said, then the spiritual sense of the shapeshifters and the fear that I had. I'm like, how do I how do I even um know how to thrive?

And uh so as I gotten older and as I started reading God's word, and you know, when you read verses like, you know, God has provided everything for life and godliness

Lisa:
And but there's a everything for life, isn't that something?

Nanette:
Not just some things.

Lisa:
Wow.

Nanette:
Yeah, and and uh but he also says in their in the knowledge of him. We have to know him to know what he's provided. So as I started knowing him and And my favorite verse is in Daniel 11, 32b, the people who know their God will display strength and take action.

So knowing God is just very um To me it's like a r that relationship. I'm trying to understand this relationship we have and that's so important. the most important relationship we have in this whole world.

Wow. And uh it's because of Jesus, you know, how do we because of Jesus who lives in me, he who is the hope of glory. It's like, how do I um work out what he's worked in me?

That hope and that victory and Um, I realize I have to always be surrendered and humbling myself. I come have to come to the end of me So God can so God can live through me.

Lisa:
So That's a good way of putting that. Come to the end of us, which sometimes we fight that. So I have a question.

There's a little bit of a mess. Your dad was abusive But he also talked about Jesus. How do you reconcile that in your mind?

You know what I mean? As a child or even as an adult. 'Cause that's kinda like conflicting things.

Yes.

Nanette:
That's messy. It is very messy. Um I think some of my family members uh they didn't want Jesus because of what they saw and what For some reason, you know, as I started reading, I ru I realized how um God's power, I don't know, God's power, he always You know, you see him open you saw Moses open up the Red Sea, you know, by God's power.

And that power of who God is is like you can work powerfully in my life. And I realized that even my dad, you know, he needs Jesus just like me. Right, right.

And uh but I remember there was a time when he wanted me to be baptized 'cause I was He said I was baptized in water. Like, oh, they dabbed the water, I don't know. Sprinkled the water.

Oh, okay. Instead of as a baby. And I guess So when I went to Berkeley, He was conflicted a little bit too with uh right.

He he really said you were already baptized and I wanted to be baptized. When I was like uh at camp at broken arrow thirteen to seventeen, I can't remember when but I remember like Jesus said, I need to, you know, be baptized. I didn't fully understand that, but I know my dad was not very happy with me being baptized, but I knew the God that was walking with me and who was speaking to me and that conviction and that You know, uh when uh I gave my life to the Lord, um one of the the speakers there said, you know, if you wanna if Jesus God is calling you to follow him and lay your life down for him you may have to suffer for him.

And so I'm like like be to die and to be killed, you know, I've I don't hear messages like that anymore. But but I'm like Lord I I'm I give you my life and I lay it on the altar and and yeah, I've stood in places where my family, you know, there some of them are very traditional. And like they're what do you mean by traditional?

Traditional the you know, they um well a lot of them would call on the medicine man and uh they would have ceremonies in their home because something uh happened to them that was very uh scary and they wanna to bring some type of balance back into their home or something's out of balance or They were they lived in a lot of fear. And so um but I also saw fear around me, but uh but with Jesus, um just realizing that you know I'm not to worship other gods or I I knew even like you know reading the book of Daniel and that's where my favorite verse is, you know the people who know that God will display strength and take action. And that's an intense book of the Bible.

Yeah, and they remain steadfast in their faith. And, you know, I was like, God, you gonna have to teach me 'cause I don't know. I don't how is it to follow you, to be your disciple, to to lay my life down for you and And I realized, you know, my family, you know, I there was a lady at it just really uh brought something to my heart.

There was a lady at the flea market where I was uh witnessing She said, um, I can't I can't leave my my traditional stuff like with the medicine man or traditional ways and and n native ways and I'm like, she goes, I I don't want to disappoint my mom. I'm I I love my I love my mom. And I I really grappled with that question.

And I realized, you know, the that lady's mom needs the love of Jesus. The kind of love that We don't know until we know Jesus. Wow.

To love her soul to Jesus. And we can love in this world, but She needs to know the love of Christ that is eternal.

Lisa:
I have a question for you. Did you ever feel like you ended up uh you know once you ha found this hope where you as fearful, you you've mentioned how there you saw fear in your home and um even some of the other things, shapeshifters, things that could be fearful. Um, were you still fearful?

Or did you ever feel like You know, I love excuse me, there's one part in the Bible that says perfect love casts out fear. And in that case, it's referring to, you know, God's love, how much he loves us and that casts out like it's forceful forceful, it kicks out the fear. But did you ever still feel fearful?

How do you deal with that? Or did Um any that help with that?

Nanette:
I think the fear started to I break because I started to know God. I the things that I knew about him And how powerfully he works and what he did at the cross. I mean, just even reading Romans, like, wow, you broke the power of sin.

You broke the power of the enemy. And knowing that, you know You know, God is my Redeemer, you know, and um even with Redeemer, uh, in the Old Testament, um I'm I can't think of the name right now, but you know, just even g Jesus having the title deed of this earth and and the enemy is a squatter. Just knowing that you know that he has this earth is going to burn up, but um also knowing that you know, we're co heirs with Christ and my identity in him and and who I am as a child of God My value, you know, he bought at the cross with his blood.

Um my value comes from that. And uh all the promises that he says, they're mine And and his victories are mine and and I tell you life in the mess is I I saw a lot of um fear being broken, especially when it came to when I was uh uh sexu sexually molested because it that had black figures with it. And I couldn't, I started, I think, to learn how to walk in this victory that Christ won at the cross.

to to live out what he he won. I don't think we even understand that. And how we thrive in Christ.

And uh so How do you thrive after being sexually molested? Well, first of all, I I I just remember drawing a line in the in the sand and saying to to the enemy, I knew the enemy is real because I saw it in our culture. I saw things, I'm like He's real.

He gives people power to to become an animal who, you know, he brings all that fear. And people curse each other and And just live in this unknown, like something might happen to them. So they might carry stuff to keep themselves protected and stuff.

But um I through that I I had an I had an experience with Jesus that really um it was a I went to my relatives who were Zio Pueblo And they I I didn't realize in this I had opened up some my life to the enemy in some ways. I I gave him ground. um as a b as God's child, I didn't realize that I was doing that until the Holy Spirit told me that that was not you know, you're in the wrong place.

And I when I evaluated where I was at, I realized my relatives were dancing to their gods. They were having a feast. I was partaking of that feast.

And I don't know if it was the corn god and the rain god, but there was spiritual activity happening there. And uh so um when we went to this place, I I realized that, you know, they wanted to pray for me and you know we're going overseas and I just realized Okay, um though again the Lord told me, you know, uh they were praying for different parts of our lives, like For me it was spiritual powers and I was very much, I could sense like, wow, I need to deal with this. God, you want me to deal with this.

And so with the sexual Yeah, uh well there there that leads to that. Right, right, okay. And so um when I when he dealt with that part where I was eleventh grade when I opened a open a door, gave grounds Um and the enemy was causing me to really like make me be even more fearful of uh the darkness and the the skinwalkers and things like that.

And it was there that I when I closed my eyes and I've always had this relationship with Jesus, talking to him, and they're like, okay, daughter, this is what I want you to do, or you know, just certain things, just being uh, you know, as a sheep hears a shepherd's voice, you know, I was always listening, trying to listen and just ongoing conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Um so it was there that I Um, when they were praying for me, I said, Jesus, where did this fear, just fear come from? And God the Holy Spirit took me all the way back to that place in Zia and showed me that there were some things that meant that I gave strongholds to the enemy. And so there, you know, I saw Jesus, I said, uh, whatever grounds I gave to the enemy um to be broken in the name of Jesus.

And I tell you There was things that happened there that was very powerful that from that moment I'm like, wow, when I drew that line in the sand. um uh with this um sexual m malestation of a relative, I and the black figures, I realize, God Um, the Lord is telling me, if you you can't as a leader pour into other leaders if I haven't poured into you. And especially because of where our young people are, like, wow, suicide, sexual abuse, all these areas.

It was there I am like, okay, God, um health I want to be a healthy leader in you. What does it mean to be that? Mm.

And so this area that I was not dealt with. And so I knew the enemy with with uh trauma was attached and working in it and uh because it because that family deals with the medicine man. And so there were black figures.

And uh so anyway that um I said to the enemy, Satan, I'm no longer your victim. I am not, I'm not gonna let you still kill and destroy me through this And I said in the name of Jesus, you know, that be cut off in his name. And I said, Jesus, you come to bring abundant life.

Not just little life, but abundant life. You know, bring your life through all this, you know. Uh you your verses like beauty for ashes and things like that.

Beautiful And we we don't want to go through the storm, but Jesus had me go through this storm. You know, we can numb ourselves or go to drugs or alcohol or whatever. You know, we can hide or numb the pain or push it away, but Jesus said is you go through the storm because that's where our character's built.

That's where his hope is built into that those t trials and testings that he brought me through and and brought his hope. It's like pulling out that his hope through these hurts and and healing and it uh there's one name um Jehovah Rapha our healer I'm like I've seen healing in different places But Jesus is the source of our hope and I mean our healing. And uh that's what I said to Jesus.

I said what you did back And showed me at this place where you took me all the way back to Zia. I said, if you can show me that route. of hurt and and what I did, you can get to the root of this hurt in my life.

Um you know how to heal it I don't, but you do.

Lisa:
So And those hurts can be so crippling for the rest of our life. And how amazing you walked through and that was a choice though you made to say Okay, God can you heal this her um because yeah, that can uh when we've been molested or assaulted or whatever, those those are deep hurts. So wow.

So thankful for that healing. And we do have another person at the table. I hate to jump so quickly, but I love See this is where I told you, Lisa.

Dino:
I told you this. You didn't believe me. You didn't want to do it.

And I kept telling you. I kept Telling you and you didn't listen to me. Oh and that's when it came out.

This is typical. This is typical I make a suggestion and nobody listens to me. And then when that happens, we may need some other healing.

Lisa:
Dino needs to be listen

Dino:
No, I told you. You need to put the net on on your own. Because there's so much wisdom, so much journey. So many things that she can share and so you need to have her on her own.

Lisa:
That's what I told you to do, but which is very true. And I may need to have you back another time because I know you work with women and young people and so many things. So there I believe me I did hear you, Dino, on that because I do need to have you back for that.

So but Dino, I wanna know some of the same things. What was your childhood like? You guys did not grew up near each other.

You grew up in different locations but you haven't met each other yet. We're not gonna get to that yet. This is just your childhood and another part on the reservation or were you just off?

Dino:
No, we were off. My uh both of my parents were from different places on the res. My dad was from Tuba City, Arizona. My mom was from Counselor on the eastern side of the res. And uh they met at one of the government boarding schools that was uh kind of like Carlisle Indian School, but it was actually in Utah, in Bergham City, Utah And uh they were brought there and uh the way my dad tells it is that uh they were told, This is where you're gonna go

Nanette:
And they didn't have a choice.

Dino:
And this is what what would happen. And he found out later, after he had gone through all this and did some research back on it, that they literally took these kids and just looked at them and said, you look like you could be a college student, you'll do the college track. You look like more like a hands-on kind of guy, so you'll do the vocational track.

And they literally picked these kids without doing any kind of research or any kind of aptitude tests or anything to show if they could be, you know, in any one of these things. And uh my dad who um, certainly had aptitude with his hands and he had a really good mind. Ended up going on the vocational track.

And uh but his mind was sharp and God really used uh uh some people when he was younger to for him to get to know uh who God was. And he actually got to know Jesus by hearing about a preacher on the radio.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness.

Dino:
And um when he heard the preacher on the radio, hit the story they told was one of the demoniac that Jesus had control over those spirits. And of course he had grown up very traditional Navajo believing that the spirits, we always have to be respecting the spirits and we always always afraid of the unknown that's out there and um so he was actually out on a ride. He was a young man uh probably sixteen or seventeen years old.

And uh he went into a place where there was a graveyard. And he had heard stories of spirits being attached to people and tormenting them and sometimes in some cases getting them sick and sometimes dying. And he remembered hearing this preacher on the radio and he said, If this preacher is right about Jesus then he prayed in that moment.

Okay, if Jesus, if you get me through this, I'm going to go find that preacher and I'm going to find out who you are. And so my dad went through that graveyard, nothing happened to him. And then within a few days, I think it was a couple of days, he found this uh Navajo preacher, and that preacher led him to Christ.

And that's how he came to know Jesus. My mom has a very dramatic story. Um, she went to a boarding school and she's one of the first students that went to this boarding school in uh northeastern New Mexico.

And when she had come to know Christ she was about eleven years old. And it was in those days that people still had arranged marriages.

Nanette:
Oh wow.

Dino:
So when she was thirteen, they arranged a marriage, her family, with a guy who was in his thirties. And she was supposed to get married, and she had learned enough of the Bible and learned enough of about how to follow Jesus that she said, I don't want to marry somebody who doesn't follow Jesus. And so when they did this arrangement at 13 years old. And she said, I don't wanna do this and so she ran away from home and she ran to the boarding school there and she hid in one of the teachers' houses.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness.

Dino:
And so you know how native people are with shame. They don't want to have anything, you know, we don't want to look bad. And we don't want to have to go through this. So when she told the story to the teachers that were there and the missionaries that were there, when the family showed up to come get her, they said, you know uh if you're trying to do an arranged marriage this is still against the law here in the United States. Right.

Lisa:
And because native uh native nations are sovereign nations.

Dino:
Yes.

Lisa:
within our nation. Yes. Also within the United States of America. So just to yeah.

Dino:
And so there was there was a a bit of a push and a pull there of, you know, what was going to happen. And because of the shame that that that's there, the family backed off and said, We're not gonna do that. But they couldn't keep her there.

And they told her, You can't stay at home. So they sent her away. And they sent her to that boarding school.

Lisa:
In Utah then where she met Houston. I was wondering how does uh res kid from one end of the re like the Navajo reservation is massive.

Dino:
Yeah, it's a si it's roughly the size of uh it's roughly the size of West Virginia.

Lisa:
Oh wow. That's how big it is. Like how I that's not easy to meet each other.

So they ended up in Utah. And so I know, um can you just touch on I know in uh you know, over the years some things have come out about challenging things in boarding schools. I hope your parents didn't go through any of that, but do you want to touch on any of that at all?

Dino:
Just to I went through some boarding school stuff myself. Uh when I was in junior high I went to boarding school. And uh on a on a scale of one to ten, ten being really bad and and one being not much, I was probably at a two or a three.

There was some stuff that went on that um that that probably would have qualified for something higher. But um the the history of boarding schools for the most part wasn't very good. And uh there were a lot of things because of a lack of accountability and just the remoteness of these boarding schools on the reservation that there was really no accountability for the people who were in charge.

And so what my parents did because they were in a place in Utah, the accountability was there because they were in a a a town. So the actual uh boarding school campus was in the town of Brigham City. So they could walk off of campus and go and you know, get a burger in a tasty freezer.

Walk over to the to the supermarket, yeah. So that there was there was a a connection there in the community that allowed them to say you know, that the stuff wasn't hidden. But if you go on the middle of the res where they have boarding schools, the nearest where any nearest town is Two, three hour drive.

Lisa:
Were you in the middle of the res?

Dino:
I was in the middle of the res. Counselor was about an hour and a half from uh Farmington, New Mexico. Okay.

And about a two hour drive from Albuquerque. Well and uh it was in a checkerboard area, so there was some other people that lived near around, you know, some uh trading post people who were mostly white and a few Hispanic people that were there. But for the most part the Navajo people in that area were very, very poor.

The uh the the standard of living was not very high. And that's when my m how my mom grew up. And uh when I gr when I was there and I went to school, um the the the the the staff weren't abusive in the sense of what we've talked about, what people have experienced in the past.

But there was this real sense of paternalistic We are trying to get you out of where you're at and to um, you know, it's let's uh anglicize the noble savage. And there was that sense of you're and and it was none of it was spoken. This is the part that there was none of that was it was feel it.

It was un the underlying thing of you poor Navajo kids. You just don't get it. And one of these days you will.

And one of these days you might be as good as us. And and I I Because I had grown up off the red, so to go back to my mom and dad, they stayed in Utah.

Nanette:
And my dad got a job.

Dino:
He's worked as an upholsterer And it was in those days back in the uh early sixties where you could actually get a job as an upholsterer and support a family. Right. And so so my dad did and my mom was a stay-at-home mom.

Mm. And uh that's how we grew up. So English is my first language.

Second is Navajo. Mm.

Lisa:
Did your parents speak more? Oh yeah.

Dino:
My parents were both first generation Navajo.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dino:
So the English was their second language.

Lisa:
mm, you know, the older generation, even my sister in law's mom, she would have to talk with her mom in English from us. Um though I think her mom could understand some, but she didn't really talk in English English. Yeah, and that that would be the same generation as my friend.

Dino:
Right, right. But because they were immersed and they were living in Utah, that they were immersed so their English got really Better better and was more functional than most people their age uh on the reservation. But one of the things that I uh experienced was um When my my parents decided to move us from Utah to New Mexico, uh, when I was thirteen years old.

Nanette:
And my dad had accepted uh oh yeah yikes.

Dino:
My my uh my uh dad decided to become the pastor of a church. Mm-hmm. And he had been trained in a local church, so he had a lot of training.

It was a very fundamental Bible believing church that he uh that we all were raised in and uh so he moved. But before that, when I was younger, I had grown up very multicultural I had Asian friends, I had African American friends, I had Hispanic friends, white friends. So when I was in there I really understood How all these you know, and we we got along as well as you can get along in a multi ethnic neighborhood.

But uh back in that day we were all friends.

Lisa:
And this was before boarding school.

Dino:
This was before boarding school. So when I came back I I moved from a multicultural situation into a monocultural situation. And because I was Navajo, that didn't mean that they accepted me.

So I came from a situation where um I knew the rules and I didn't know the rules on the res And so I found myself in this really strange position where I was not Navajo enough for the Navajo people. And I was Navajo for the rest of the world. And so when you're thirteen years old and you're trying to figure out life and you don't feel like you belong anywhere.

How are you gonna think about life?

Lisa:
That's messy. Yeah. I that affects how you view yourself, who at 13, teenager, what's my identity? How did you navigate through all of that?

Dino:
So I'd come to know Christ when I was seven years old. Um, in the church we went that we went to, I became a Christian when I was seven. And I as far as much as I knew at seven to thirteen, that's the kind of life that I lived.

But when I got introduced to my history my history as a Navajo person, but also my history in my own family. I began to see what really went on. Because we went to my mom's side of the family.

And they weren't as well to do, so to speak, as my dad's side of the family, 'cause my dad's side of the family, they raised livestock, they had horses, they had sheep, they had cows, and so they were a little more well to do um, more like a middle class kinda Navajo family. My mom's family on the other side on the other side were very poor. Um my grandma still lived in a Hogan, no running water.

No electricity. The Hogan being the round circular house made of cedar logs and mud.

Lisa:
And usually the fireplace is right in the middle, right? Yeah, yeah.

Dino:
And so we lived in a house that the government had built for my grandma and we lived in there with her. So it was my my my mom and my dad, my uh three sist three sisters and my brother and myself. including my grandma and my aunt.

So we're living in a in a house that was probably roughly twelve by thirty. It was small. And uh that's w how we started our living our life there.

And because I was a little smallish for my age and because all of the kids that I went to school with had either been held back one or two years I was thirteen going to school with fifteen and sixteen year olds.

Lisa:
Oh, wow.

Dino:
So that produced something else in my in my life. Because at the time, you know, I've been taught since I was, you know, old enough to go to school, hey, get good grades. This is your way out.

This is your opportunity. Because mom and dad recognized that This is a way for you to, you know, make it in life. So I was a studious student.

You know, I went in and I did my thing. Well, there was kids there that really didn't like me for being that kind of a you know studious kind of kid and I was already on the outskirts of everything. Right.

And I didn't know the language. And I didn't know how to navigate anything. And so in the boarding school when I was thirteen, probably hadn't been there for more than six or seven months, these uh young men decided to lay hold of me and they sexually assaulted me in the boarding school in the dormitory.

And um I never talked about that for years after it happened. I didn't tell anybody for a really long time because I was ashamed.

Lisa:
And one of the things that shame is such bondage. Yeah.

Dino:
Oh yeah. One of the things that I that I I really struggled with, and maybe even to this day. was I had grown up hearing stories of God delivering his people.

I had heard the stories of Moses saving the children of Israel and crossing the Red Sea, Joshua opening the Jordan, David and Goliath, Daniel and the Lion's Den and I had this in my head. And when this started to happen, I cried out to God and said, God, can you save me? God, please save me.

And he didn't. And everything that I had believed to that point about God just got totally messed up. And I began to doubt. whether God was good.

I didn't know that when I was thirteen, but I began to doubt if God really was who he said he was. Yeah. And I didn't know how to process that at that time.

I know now. I look back on it now and I know how to process that. But in the moment I thought, God, where are you?

Lisa:
How would you process that? Like someone I there could be someone who's watching or listening, who's walked through that. You both have walked through that experience, but it's hard when you're little to n walk through that. But What would you recommend to someone, whether they're that age or an adult, you know?

Dino:
Well part of the thing that happened to me was I had to come to terms with the fact that God doesn't make people do that. God gives us a choice. He gives every one of us a choice to choose him or not to choose him. And each one of those choices create not just the character of a person, but a life And for some reason these young men decided that I was an easy target because I was smaller than them. They didn't like me because I was a really good student and they weren't And they thought that I, in my at least in their mind, as far as what I found out later, they thought that I was trying to be better than them.

Lisa:
them.

Dino:
Or that I believed that I was better than them. And you were just trying to keep your head down, just And I'm just trying to get through school and this is what I was taught and I didn't know the rules. And in the middle of all that I didn't know how to navigate it, but now as I've gotten older, I know how that is.

But for the 13-year-old to reach out to God and to say, what what you know you have to ask. the questions. You have to say to God, I don't understand why you put me through this.

Why did I have to go through this? Sometimes you're not gonna get an answer. God's not going to break the clouds and say, This is why And for years in my life I didn't have an answer.

But I knew what I knew. And this is something that we're teaching because we're teaching at the uh uh leadership center this week, Nanette and I about relationships. And one of the key things that we're trying to tell them, especially in this twenty first century culture that they live in, is that they must believe and act on what they know, not what they feel.

Lisa:
Wow, right.

Dino:
And when they believe and they act on what they know, that takes what they feel and actually has a place for it. Because when we start just going on how we feel It changes the landscape. And we start to believe what we feel.

And then we all know that our feelings change so often on different different things. One day we like something and another day not so much and then we end up hating what we used to like. And vice versa.

There's something that we, you know, like now we hate. And Because we're human beings and we don't know how to navigate some of these things. And without Christ, there is no up or down.

It's just complete spiritual vertigo. And to that person I would say the only person who knows how to rewire us after we've gone through all this is the one who wired us to begin with. And that's Jesus Christ.

Lisa:
Wow. Wow. That's That is really powerful.

And you know, I cannot help but think of whether it's boarding schools, whether it's what happened to you guys, you did not choose. the things that happened to you. In this case, being sexually assaulted, s molested, you had no choice in that.

But I cannot help but think of the verse where it talks about how God is a God of justice. That he s he knows and he does not let these things just sit there. He is a God of justice.

And I'm so thankful for that because God loves us. We talk about that a lot of how God loves us, but he also gets the final say on some of these things.

Dino:
And there's an ending to the story. There's an ending to this story that I have. Lisa. It's when I went to God and asked him why.

Nanette:
Mm.

Dino:
I went to him when I was seventeen years old. God just suppressed in my heart, you gonna serve me, do you know? You gonna follow me?

I was playing on the basketball team and I was shooting free throws at midnight on one of those very, very bright moonlit nights where the s the sun is bouncing off the moon and it's almost like day. And I was out shooting free throws and practicing because I was on the team. And God spoke very deeply to my heart and said, Are you going to follow him?

Are you going to give your life to me, Dino? And I asked God the question again, why'd you let this happen to me? And had never left me.

And I and I and I kept asking him, God, what what what did you what where were you? And I never got an answer from God. But that presence of God in that moment in my life right there.

made me decide, okay, God, I am going to follow you now. I am going to get on this journey. I'm going to start on this path.

I'm doing this purely on what I know. I know what I believe and I'm acting on it because I know who you are. I know what I've been taught about you.

I don't feel like it. In fact, I feel horrible about my life sometimes. The only thing that really held me together when I was in high school was that I played sports and I played basketball.

Lisa:
Wow.

Dino:
And I had Jesus, but I was kind of barely holding on to him. And in that moment I say, okay, God, I'm going to do those things. I'm going to start reading my Bible every day in earnest.

I'm going to start talking to you every day. I'm going to start telling people about you. And I'm really going to pour myself into my dad's church and to really try to help out and do whatever I can because I'm really going to commit to following you.

And when I get to the end of this journey. If you haven't proven to me that you're willing to be followed, then I'm not going to do it. Wow.

And and you know what? In that moment, nothing happened. There was no kind of moment.

Nanette:
Right, right, right.

Dino:
It was just pure and simple, this is my decision, God. And I went into the house that night and I woke my parents up. I didn't know what time it was. I woke 'em up.

Lisa:
And they did not know before now. No.

Dino:
And I haven't told them nothing about what happened to me. In fact They didn't find out what happened to me until almost 30 years later. Oh, wow.

When I was ordained as a as a minister. Wow. That's when they found out the first time.

Lisa:
They must have been heartbroken, I'm sure. That it just stings about the body.

Dino:
Right podcast. But but what what what I came to is in that moment that God didn't say anything to me. But I trusted and acted on what I knew and I believed it.

Nanette:
Wow. And I walked in that.

Dino:
And you know what, Lisa? It was several years later. In a complete totally unrelated moment where I was sitting there and that thought popped into my head the answer to that question and in my head I said God where were you And this is what God said to me, Lisa.

I never left you. Wow. It hit me so hard when I got in that moment that I I was sitting on the ground and I and I just turned over and I Put my face to the ground and I just started crying.

And I sat there and I wept.

Lisa:
I need to keep tissues in here. Golly, wow.

Dino:
Because I It never occurred to me in the middle of what I was going through.

Lisa:
Right.

Dino:
Because I had given my life to Jesus when I was seven years old. Why would he have gone anywhere?

Lisa:
He didn't.

Dino:
And he was with me in the struggle. He's with me in the pain. He's with me in the all the horribleness that I went through.

And if we can understand, even though we know Jesus, that doesn't exempt us from pain and suffering and difficulty and being traumatized or victimized or anything like that. Right. But it does mean That he's with us through it all.

And that's something that I when I finally landed in that and when we talked to our students When we have kids that come to Broken Air Bible Ranch and they sit down with us and they start talking, I don't know, I've never told anybody, but I I was molested by a relative. I couldn't look at those kids and say I can I know a little bit of how you feel.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Dino:
I know a little bit.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dino:
And Jesus can rescue you. And that gives me the opportunity to say, even though this thing happened to me, I can truly say now, looking back, I'm thankful to God for what

Lisa:
Oh wow. That's a hard place to get to because you could totally just say, God, I want nothing to do with you. Why do you think like you came to some of this a few years after that happened? Why do you think at age 13 you didn't totally turn your back on God?

Dino:
It was actually really an act of God that kept me in a place where I felt I felt felt rejected at that point by everything and everyone. But I there was something inside of my soul that said, yeah, God didn't help you, but he's still around. He's he's there's too much evidence.

There's too much evidence to say that he's not here. One of the things that I went through in college was I had a professor at a Christian college, no less, who stood in front of us in a philosophy class and said to us, Prove to me God exists. And we went through two weeks of trying to prove this man wrong and we couldn't. Well and it produced in me this idea, well, if God isn't there, what's the point?

And I had been through stuff in my life. And I said, if it if there's no if God's not here, what prevents me from just taking my own life? Because if there's if there's no if this is all that there is, what am I really living for?

And so when I talk to kids about, hey, I've went through, I've had suicidal thoughts before because I've had to think through the idea of God is not here. What do I have to live for? But he is.

He's here. There's way too much evidence. I saw the evidence in my dad's life, knew his story, knew what he had to do.

My dad. walked outside. We were we were only in the in our house on the reservation for a week and he heard something walking on the top of the roof of the house.

He walked off up outside and it was a skinwalker standing on top of the house And my dad said he froze and he was scared to death. And the Lord put into his head, share the gospel with the skinwalker. So my dad started preaching to this guy.

And started telling him about Jesus. And that skinwalker jumped off the top of the house and ran off. The next night he showed up again.

And dad With the word of God in his hand, shared the gospel with the skinwalker, and the skinwalker left the third night, never came back Wow. There was evidence that I saw around me. My mom.

My mom would pray. She would lay hands on people. And some of these things that were going on with these kids and some of the sicknesses that she had, she would lay hands on them.

And all of a sudden these kids are well and How did they get well? And it was just supposed to be this long illness. And like, well, we prayed for them.

And God was at work in my family, in my dad's life, in my mom's life. And there was too much evidence for me to just dismiss it. So for all of you moms and dads who love your children and who have been faithful for years, keep praying for them.

Keep being faithful to the Lord. Keep reading your Bible and praying in front of your children because you don't know that that evidence will help them believe for what they can't see yet.

Lisa:
Mm-hmm. You each were sexually molested. And you had some healing, how do you end up getting married and having a healthy marriage with some of that in your mind?

How do you have a healthy marriage? Do you guys have any hope to give someone who's in that same situation? Or they're like, forget it.

I was sexually molested. I can't get married. They've just shut down.

Dino:
Well, we we can't speak on the scale of what you know people have gone through very individual. Yes, and so the the the things that we that I went through Um, in my case was male on male, you know, assault in that way. Um, but uh for other people it's it could be an adult to a child.

And so that's a whole different kind of stuff. Right, right. And and and I know that for me the the idea of what does that represent There's an intimacy to that that for me I I had no other way of putting it in a place other than this this is something that's really intimate to me.

And and now I have to either really guard it or just never get beyond that. So I did entertain thoughts of never being married when I was growing up and when I got older and that's a whole nother podcast.

Nanette:
Yeah, I know.

Dino:
But but the idea for me is that I I knew that I wanted to be married because I wanted to share what God was doing in my life with someone. 'Cause I had been doing ministry for a long time. when I graduated from uh college in nineteen ninety-two and I immediately jumped into being part of a uh of a mission organization.

And it started doing ministry on the res and I was running all over the res doing all kinds of VBSs and youth meetings. You still are and and all of that started, you know, right after getting out of college and I was just so involved in doing different things. But there there are moments where there was victories, kids coming to know Christ, kids getting their lives back online and and and and working and following Jesus.

And I would drive home by myself. And I thought, God, I really want to share this with somebody. I don't want to do this by myself.

And it got to the point where it was just so overwhelming that I was driving home one night and just cried. I cried all the way home. I was literally on the other side of the res and I was driving home for like four hours just crying and telling the Lord, I don't like this.

I hate the fact that I do this by myself. I want to share this with somebody. And I don't want to do this anymore if I can't share this with somebody.

Because I I'm I'm experiencing things that I want to be able to tell somebody. You remember when? And you remember when God and Annette and I have been married since 1997?

And we have those moments now. We have those moments where we look back and say, wow, you see. what God did, you remember, and all that.

And we've seen that with our children as well. Our boys who were um 19 and 22. It's just amazing to see what God is doing in their lives, but also seeing how God has prepared them and how he has given to both of us that opportunity not only to be married to each other, but to have a family as well

Lisa:
Wow. Oh, what healing and do you have anything you want to add to that?

Nanette:
Oh, um Let's see, I uh I don't know for what for some reason I'm thinking of Psalm 73, um, where the psalmist saw his enemies as They looked like they were succeeding and he just uh when he went into God's temple or God's uh sanctuary, um he realized he had a a perspective that God gave him perspective. And, you know, when you feel so hopeless And you you you have these ruts that you're always in and and I love that word sanctification. I didn't realize how God can Um, and how God can help us renew our minds, to transform us, to see things as He sees them, and to give us, you know, that perspective. That's a good explanation of sanctification.

Lisa:
Yeah. Because that's a big word with a whole lot of syllables.

Nanette:
Yes. And just to see how s the enemy wants to keep us crippled. And to to know, you know, trauma does have a f it affected the way I saw life.

And But I always remembered uh Matthew six thirty three, you know, seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things would be added unto you. And I'm like, he goes, you know, I I take care of the birds You know, don't worry about your life. You know, it's like and I realized um as I we when we got married that I'm like, God, you're gonna have to show me or help me because I don't know.

I know you brought Dino into my life, and And I know he brought him into my life. Uh, you know, we sh I wanted to marry someone who who loved Jesus, who wanted to because that's where my heart was. God told me, you know, I want you to go to Bible school and, you know, lay your life down for me and be a missionary.

I'm like, Oh, okay, Lord Uh this was in tenth grade, so I wanted to marry someone who would share that same heart and Um does remember winds he was talking about.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Nanette:
So um and that was uh when we were on OE Dub on Eagle's Wings. And uh I liked Dino but he wanted to work with young people and I was I didn't want to work with young people. I was scared of young people 'cause I had older siblings.

Uhhuh. And so I said, God, if you want me with Dino You're gonna have to change my heart. And Ron was speaking at that time and he says, um My dad.

Yes, your dad. It was your dad that God used and uh He said, um, native youth are the most devastated youth in America and my heart just flipped where I was like, Oh no, you're bringing me you're making my heart one with Dino. And so those kinds of things I prayed.

I you know, I love this quote that Dean always would quote um to the our staff and he would say, God is not found by the casual observer. And so I sought hard, you know, my God, you know, he's the reward of those who diligently seek him. And uh you know, Hebrews 11, 6 is just Show me God, you know, I don't understand.

Um, but I knew he had to deal with my trauma. He had to deal with the hurt. So when we got married, um I saw through a lot of hurt glasses.

I I saw, you know, how Satan wanted to keep me a victim and I learned a lot. just by being by around my family, um, I learned they learned codependency. I didn't understand that.

I learned the guilt that they lived in and Um, I I had to learn through so much that God show was showing me as um, you know, not only living close to them, but as He was healing the trauma. and going to the roots of of the hurt and bringing truth to it. And um you know, just being married with with Dino, um, that really affected our marriage.

It really did. And and I couldn't see that Uh, Dino wanted Dino needed Jesus as much as I needed him because the trauma put my expectation so high on Dino. So I wanted to him to be my knight in shining armor.

I wanted to ride into the sunset. I wanted him to rescue me. But I realized I was surviving a lot.

but not thriving and living like Jesus and having a peace, you know, that God and having hope despite what we see in the hurts and the mess. You just think the mess is what defines our hope or how we feel about hope. And uh so when I started seeing And God was healing a lot of that hurt.

I started to see though that I saw Dino as a roommate for some times, you know, and because of the trauma But then I started seeing him as my husband and much more. He's he's now for so many years my best friend. You know, I never like the oneness we share together in Christ and we're still growing in what that means.

And God had to deal with a lot of things. Even my the generational, my mom was very much the matriarch in our family, the mother rule. And At one point the Lord told me, you know, that this isn't something you need to break in my name, to break the cycle, because, you know, I'm like, well, God, I And I break the cycle in your name, but show me what it what you meant, how it's supposed to be.

How am I supposed to be a mother? How's supposed to be the wife that you intended? So I can live that out.

And be fulfilled, you know, and to grow more in the fullness of who God is and you know experiencing that fullness on deeper levels So yeah, I'm just I'm still learning, but I tell you, my I had little peace when I started to walk with Jesus, but that peace In Romans 4, where Abraham grew in faith, I'm like, I gr I've grown in his peace and deeper levels. So when my life was so rocky by the mess, it's like Wow, now this boat, this life is more grounded in Jesus. It's more, even though the waves crash hard.

I realize, you know, even though I'm struck down, but I'm not destroyed, because Jesus rises up in me out of those things. And he helps me as I Again, I've learned surrender. I've learned to humble myself.

Lisa:
So many choices you guys have made. And that only God could do. Oh the only healing.

You guys, you've talked so much about healing. We've talked about trauma, but how Um, you chose to turn to God when you easily could have turned your back and said, You know what? No, you let this happen.

Um You guys, someone could have been watching or listening today who's walked through this same road and um and they don't see the hope. They don't have that healing. Um, you guys have talked about turning to God.

Do you know can you just share what do you mean by that relationship? How can someone have that relationship today who's like, I'm at the end. I I I need that hope.

I want that.

Dino:
Well, speaking of relationship, I mean we've known you guys for how long? It's been so many years and uh you guys have played a role in uh you know know our formation as leaders and as and you know I in many ways consider you know your brothers uh Doug and Brad as my brothers because of everything that we've been through and how we've grown And I know you consider Nanette your sister. And you've known us before we were married.

You knew us before all that and we've walked together. And that proves that in many ways though even though that um we're not connected in the ethnic way of how we're Navajo and you're not native in any way we are connected with the tribe of Jesus Christ. And that and that right there is what binds us together.

And it should bind us together. And I and I'm reminded of that history and we and I look back on it. And it's been many years.

And we've seen God do some amazing things. And it all started with the fact that at one point in our lives we were confronted with the fact that what what are we here for? And we need we need Jesus.

And and I want to read a verse from Psalm seventy-one. And this kind of captures where I'm at right now and I think where we're at as a couple. And it's Psalm seventy-one seventeen.

It says, Oh God, you have taught me from my youth. and I still declare your wondrous deeds. And even when I am old and gray, and we're gray now, O God, do not forsake me until I declare your strength to this generation your power to all who are to come.

And if we can just tell people right now, there is hopelessness and there is so many things that we look at life and say, why are we here? And we can look at people and say, you know what? God has given us this opportunity to know him.

We were made by God, for God. That was the original intent of us to be on this earth. And then we chose the wrong path.

We chose sin. We chose to go away from God. And that sin now separates us from Him.

But God being rich in mercy and great in his love sent Jesus Christ down to not only be our example on the earth but also our sacrifice. And when he came He set it up so that his life could be our payment for sin. And not only did he pay for the sin, in three days, he rose again and triumphed over death and sin.

And now we have that access to God through Jesus Christ. And when we have that relationship with Him, when we accept His free gift of salvation, God gives us his Holy Spirit to guide us in all in every area of our lives. And I know that you've done that, I've done that, and then that has done that.

And I'm going to keep proclaiming that even when I'm old and great in the next generation, that there is hope in Jesus Christ. And that if we would just turn to him, and even if we are believers and we're struggling right now We can turn back to Jesus. Maybe we've committed some sin that we feel like has disqualified us and now we can't come back.

Yes. God says no. I love you and I still want to have a relationship with you. Come back to me and you'll know who I am and my great love for you.

And we don't understand it completely, but we but we walk in it and we accept it because God has told us from the very beginning, I want relationship with you. Jesus has come to save and he loves us so very much.

Lisa:
Wow. I am so thankful for the mess you have shared. For the hope you have given.

And friend, if you want to choose that hope today, it's like Dina was even saying that sin, that S-I-N, it's all about me, that middle letter I And we can just turn to God and say, you know what? I I want you to drive. God, I don't want to drive anymore.

And say, I'm sorry for all the crud, for all the choices I've made that are my way, and I choose your way, God. And your life can be forever change. And I thank you so much for sharing your hope, your mess And I just look forward to having you back because there's so much more.

Dino:
I think we came up with about five other podcasts after this. I told you this was gonna happen. You were right and I did hear!

Lisa:
Let's have healing!

Nanette:
I did hear you!

Lisa:
I did hear you! Oh golly! And friend, I really hope you'll be back and join us next time on Thrive in the Mess.