Family Group Chat: 2 Brothers & a Sister - The Chaos & Fun of Adult Sibling Life

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I'm excited you're here. I am very thrilled. I think I say I'm thrilled all the time, but I really am thrilled to have my brothers here today.

Two special guests. We've known each other over fifty years.

Brad:
Whoa, that's a little I'm only 39, so I don't know how that's possible.

Lisa:
And I should probably introduce you first. I'm Lisa, I'm the oldest, and then my brother Doug. Are we still doing that?

Brad:
We are, we are, but I'm not sure. Why do you keep looking at that game?

Lisa:
That was Brad's line when we were when we were growing up. Are you still filming? That's right.

Lisa:
And my youngest brother Brad, who's a younger than Doug. Hello.

Brad:
Hi.

Lisa:
Now Brad, it's very nice because usually you were stuck between us in the back seat in the middle of the back

Brad:
But this time Doug took them for the for you to learn that.

Lisa:
I don't know that we're gonna get it either.

Brad:
Doug had convinced me that when I yelled shotgun, it meant I got the middle seat in the back. I don't know. He's like, Good, you got it. Get in the back there, Zippy.

Lisa:
Well Doug took one for you today and he let you not sit in the middle. That's true.

Brad:
Doug, thank you.

Lisa:
Now we're actually more in birth order, so we didn't want you to feel claustrophobic like all the time. Are we filming? I will tell you.

So we're coming, we're in the middle of the holiday season. We're gonna touch on some of that. And uh one of you actually, I think this was Doug who gave this to me.

last year and I love baby Yoda, Grogu. So I just pulled him out 'cause I just was giving him for Christmas last year.

Doug:
It's like joyful and terrifying at the same time. Did his mouth move? I'm pretty sure it did.

Lisa:
His ears and mouth move. Okay, well I'll he's No leave him there.

Doug:
No, he's great. It's driving the mess here.

Lisa:
Look at all the And he does.

Lisa:
He does He does thrive in a mess too. That's in messy situations.

Doug:
Oh god. Every time I check it out, I'm like, man, Lisa is an awesome host and you know how to you know how to get into into things that Christians need to be talking about. but that are really hard to talk about sometimes. So I'm thrilled to be on here.

Brad:
It's really true. I thought maybe you had uh lost it when you asked us if we'd be on, but I th I was like, all right, she she's uh She she's a brave soul, but you are I I really do love being able to be part of the conversation about thriving in the mess today. And I am glad you pointed out that, you know, it is Christmas time 'cause it really helps explain what I'm wearing.

Lisa:
So that we actually live in the same town. Now we didn't always. I remember you guys drove across uh the country to be able to um uh to see I my my oldest child it was the first

Brad:
Yeah.

Lisa:
Nephew that you guys or niece or nephew you guys had born and you took off and drove from Arizona to New Jersey when he was born and just some really loving supportive things. And we actually are talking about sibling adult sibling relationships and I will have to tell you I have a little little uh PTSD after uh Thanksgiving. There's something Wet on my arm and on my pants. Yeah.

Brad:
Well no for starters, I think they'll give them waiting for half an hour for it to be passed to 'em. I was so hungry I was shaking. That's why.

Sorry, Lee. She showed up next to us in between Lise and me and uh and and just uh There was no more time for passing it. And me the caring soul that I am, as Doug spilled it, my first reaction was it didn't get on what I was thinking, did it and I remember that.

I'm like, this is doused in it, and I'm like, am I okay?

Lisa:
So golly So things like that, you know, and honestly there are relationships where a lot more than gravy gets dumped on people. So and so you look at Like we live in the same town, we work together. How in the world do we do that?

You know, but it's really been a privilege and we've worked with our parents until our mom you know, passed away. Uh, but we'll get to that a little later. Uh we get along, we each have uh you know, we're married, we each have three children.

I think that's all we could all handle. Maybe I don't know. We grew up with three children It's all that fits in the backseat of a car.

Lisa:
There we go.

Lisa:
I mean But uh and we're actually friends. You were some of the people I love to laugh with more than anything. I know there was one time, I think it was my anniversary wedding anniversary after our mom passed away. You guys show up at the door and you had a little anniversary gift and a little anniversary dance and a song that w Oh how precious. I think it went like happy anniversary and a little bit.

Lisa:
I remember we worked for a long time.

Doug:
I thought we

Lisa:
So we're just gonna kinda, you know, talk about all the things, you know, we grew up together. There are Funny stories of you guys shared a room being the only girl. I did not have to. I didn't think that was a really good thing.

Doug:
It wasn't a big room that we shared.

Brad:
It really wasn't. I

Doug:
I think we thought it was back like in college and you're like, why did mom and dad put us both in this no totally.

Brad:
I mean we I guess they didn't really have a choice.

Doug:
Swept in the wrong. And was we start to get to be teenagers at wood. I mean obviously we grew up in the same area And we all went off into different uh uh in different ministries that the Lord had called us to, up in Chicago and Arizona, and all over the place. And And it's just interesting how the Lord at different times, it wasn't all at once, it it's a it's a cool story, but it at different times called us back together into this area, um, very naturally and in his timing and and it's yeah, it's it's awesome that we get to Live near each other. Don't live too near each other.

Lisa:
That's my first uh piece of advice.

Doug:
Take your get a surveyor and make sure you're at least a mile Mile away. A miles too far to just to go walk out the front door and go, I guess I'll go borrow some salt

Lisa:
So when I need an egg or a cup of sugar, no, and I kinda wanna reminisce a little bit about what are some of your earliest childhood memories. I'm the oldest, so I I really remember when Brad came home from the hospital and as a baby, so I have some little vague memories. about that, but what are some of your guys' earliest childhood memories?

Brad:
Like with our parents and our family and I think for me, honestly, the uh it Maybe it's because you brought up the back seat, but there are some of the funniest memories I I remember with the three of us. are on I mean we would do road trips and I they you know we would travel with dad and mom when they were when dad would do some ministry stuff and everything and Um it just the the laughter that would ensue in the backseat, usually getting us in calling. And the anger. And well, the laughter came from anger sometimes because And anger from left. We would be annoying each other because we're siblings.

Doug:
Uh there was nothing to do. It was a fifteen hour drive.

Brad:
We didn't have phones. stuff. It was children, do tic-tac-toe again. No, it's a good thing.

Lisa:
The outfit the game doesn't always work out of paper.

Brad:
Dad would distract us with, hey, find a deer, give a buck. for a buck and we're just like we're like three hours into it. We're like there were we couldn't see them anyway.

That's where the laughter would come because then mom and dad would say that's totally what was going through my mind. The fold your hands, close your eyes. And so if you if you're not watching on YouTube, you need to just tune in for this part because we would fold our hands and we would just like move our fingers.

It'd be like don't move. And we'd like then like poke the other person real quick. And it wasn't even like and at that point it wasn't annoying us.

Yeah, that was our big rebellion. And I um and the other person would start cracking up and then got that person in trouble again. But it was it was just being able to Do life together.

We had so many memories at the house that which made that's part of why moving away was Hard for us, not because I mean there's a lot of memories in New Jersey and obviously uh if you're listening, I'm I won't even pretend that this I that I am concerned if you're offended by this because it's the best pizza, it's the best bagels, it's the best food. Uh in the country around that area. And the but so we have these memories though of just us.

And that's why I still drive by the house which the people who live there now have asked me to stop doing. But but we uh Oh no doubt.

Doug:
And I think there's an order. It says standing order, a hundred yards. Brad gets the binoculars and gets out on the street. Hey, they said I could be a hundred yards. They said I could be a hundred yards.

Lisa:
Sue Mia Our parents did make it a special place. Just our family of five was pretty tight

Brad:
You know, so Yeah, and let's give a uh shout out to our Aunt Val because we had this family five. We didn't have immediate cousins uh and everything, which I know a lot of people grow up with now. Our kids all Get to have that experience which is great and I love that they do.

But for us it really did. We were we were fun together, we were playing together We're doing life together and uh and our Aunt Val, my mom's sister, uh she was so much a part of our family. She lived about fifteen minutes away.

She really was. She loved us. She cared about us.

She terrified us with one look. If we were acting up. Yeah.

She never had to do that. She looked at us and we're just like, sorry. Uh and it wasn't.

Doug:
She never had to raise her hand against us, but she would raise her eyes.

Brad:
She would raise her eyes. And so shout out to her because she was the it was the family of five, but it really was the family of six and just the uh life we got to do together, um a lot of victories, a lot of fun things and a lot of challenges that we went through. Uh I I'm probably sharing too much right now, but the I I think going back to the backseat of just kind of being in the car together, that's also you think of some of the challenges we went through because when we were hit by the drunk driver Uh and and the three of us were young and we're in the back seat and we didn't know what had happened and we were coming home from a Christmas Eve just uh staff event and everything and Um, just all of a sudden it was like, wait, did we hit an Icy patch or whatever else? And then no, it was a drunk driver that hit us and the car was totaled and Um all of us walked away from that, but even though we're going to be able to do that.

Lisa:
We were told we shouldn't. Yeah. Officers said we shouldn't have walked away from that.

Brad:
Dealing with just the after effects of that as a family. I mean it was something we went through together and you have to walk through those times because those things happen in life where it is hard hits and you don't and it's just like how do I walk through this in a healthy way.

Doug:
I'll be honest, I've been trying to open this without making without making noise for about six minutes. You can't hear this can you? You can't hear this, can you?

Lisa:
And honestly, now our parents too are were we are pretty strong willed. uh people, you know, as children and you guys were. Okay, I'm and but I remember our mom saying she would rather us have a strong will because she wanted us to be able to take a stand someday for what we believed in, than to just kinda be affected and pushed and molded by other voices and in our world to the money.

Doug:
Um you can take this to a bad extreme, but they with with good judgment they would uh give us the freedom the older we got to make our own mistakes and um our own decisions and sometimes those decisions were mistakes but it it uh it uh communicated a trust mm from them. I you don't realize it when you're a kid, when you're ten, twelve, thirteen. You don't realize what they're doing right now is they're intentionally Um bestowing trust on me and and giving it a little more, a little more, a little more.

I do it with my kids now. I know you I from what I know how you guys have raised your kids, you do the same thing. And um and it it's kind of a generational thing because they did it, and we do it with our kids and and our kids now as they've gotten older Our daughter, Noelle, uh, told us just not too long ago that she actually had noticed that.

It was something you get in your twenties and you start to get some perspective and go Oh, that's what mom and dad were doing. I told mom every year that went by as I got in my twenties that she got smarter. You know, a everything that you'd argue about or everything you disagree about.

And uh and but she told us she just said she was rising up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she told me she said, Thank you, uh thank you, Dad, for uh trusting me 'cause I had told her I was proud of her that she was strong and independent, not rebellious rebelliously so, but but um knew how to make her own decisions, knew who she is, knows who she is in Christ and And um she attributed that to being trusted along the way and I attribute that because our parents exactly with us.

Lisa:
Right. No, that is huge because I do think It's so important, like you said, to know who we are. God has made each of us uniquely us and we're valuable and one of a kind. And there are gonna be a lot of voices that tell us differently and tell our children that differently throughout their life. So I do think that's a huge thing mom and dad did.

Doug:
Your your kids will be told every single thing that's wrong with them, even if it's not. But they'll read it and and we can be prone to go, oh yeah, that's something that's wrong. With the thing.

Lisa:
Because you want your child to if it can be channeled a certain way and channeled is a good word.

Doug:
Channeled is a good word. You don't want y you know, you don't want the strong will, especially when they're really young, that can mean uh that can mean going outside of boundaries it could hurt them later in life. You know, you want you don't want your two-year-old to go, well, I want to stick this fork. In this outlet. Well let's let let's let little let's let little Steffi Lisa's had experience.

Brad:
Uh at his rehearsal dinner.

Doug:
So we're not we're not judging. The first memory I have of her Is uh i you it was at it was at Christmas and you were opening a doll. I don't know why I remember this.

It might have been the Chrissy doll, I don't know I still have that. But it oh yeah, yeah. I I remember you opening up the doll and like it must have been a new fangled.

I remember you putting like diapers on it. This is this is my first and then putting diapers on Brad.

Brad:
Wait, wait, wait. So all the babies of the family out there, I get you. I'm just gonna look at the camera right now.

To the youngest, to the babies of the family You go through our family movies and it's just like you're waiting, you're waiting, like, well Doug and Lisa are getting older, so I must show up sometime soon Yeah. So I show up, but Lisa was like, I had to share screen time with my brother Doug already. I'm not doing it with my brother Brad.

And I so I would be like, I'm not sure we have my first steps on video because Lisa's like, I'm jumping in the picture. And she would always have this pose of ta-da and you're so happy and smiley. And I didn't know in the background.

Doug:
You came in the picture that like the camera would go over to you and then there would be wild camera movements over to Lisa.

Brad:
Oh, and then there was the one. Where it's Christmas, it's a Christmas episode. Uh and uh I Lisa r really wanted a Santa hat on me.

I'm right. I remember that. This was close to abuse.

If you have this was close. If you've met a Hutchcraft uh man, you know that We have a hard time finding hats that fit our head together. So at that time it was still a problem.

Doug:
Have you tried the men's sizes?

Brad:
I'm pretty sure it was a hat free G. I. Joe doll because it was Really seems to be a little bit more. She's like, I will get this on. She's like tackling me in the video.

That thing did not want to go along. I don't know what happened, but my head shrunk three sizes that day. She's like, here you go, snap.

Doug:
It really is true though, because we were I our third Sam, Sam is is uh uh let's see seven years younger, six or seven years younger than than his next oldest sibling. And yeah, he he has he has noticed it already when we take out the We a couple years ago we sa we were taking all the ornaments and he goes, Are any of these have me on them? Like there's babies first Christmas and they're like 14 of those for our first one. You know, and and he's like just looking through it, you know, like putting them over his shoulder. Made one

Brad:
I think if you look back through our family videos, it's probably the uh baby of the family thing because I think we just there when Joshua was born, it's like I have just videos hours focused on him where it's just like he's not doing anything. I'm just gonna sit there and do it So you would get to those and you're like, Dad, what were you doing? I don't know. Oh my goodness.

Lisa:
I do love all these memories because honestly, like as siblings you're each other's first friends. And see it's those kinds of things and I feel like those are like glue that hold relationships together and things. But there's a lot of broken what there are a lot of people who are writing off Family, Christmas.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Lisa:
What what would you say to someone like that in the middle of all this? They're just like, you know what? I there's just too Much, you know, is there any kind of hope, you know, we can give someone.

Doug:
You can only make decisions for yourself. You can't You can't go, well, I will I I'm gonna um I'm gonna go and and be okay with this person once they start treating me the right way. You gotta be the first one To do it as Christ's ambassador and in and whether you know uh the Lord in that way or n or not There's this great scripture uh in the Bible that is good for it do uh whatever you believe it says don't let the sun go down on your anger.

And it we all know it happens when when something that even s a lot of times wasn't even a big deal. And sometimes it can be a big deal, but a day goes by. uh weeks, years.

And and what happens over time is like with any other seeds, roots grow Resentments grow. And if you're gonna wait for if you're asking me what I would say to someone who's struggling with this, if you're gonna wait for your sibling or your parent to um start acting the way that they should and being respectful of you, you may never reconcile with them. But if you Will um there's uh uh so much great scripture about this, but if there there's a great Bible verse that says love doesn't keep a record of wrongs.

And uh that's exactly what grudges are, these things these things that last forever. So if you will model forgiveness and kindness, even when you don't and maybe especially when you don't feel like it. You may be surprised at what that example does.

Maybe it won't do anything, but you might be surprised at what that example does for your your sibling. or your parent. They go there's a uh scripture that says a gentle answer turns away wrath and it's like kindness melts anger.

Kind responses and and encouragement in the face of discouragement. Um we could even make a a r kind of a rule and go every time someone says something discouraging. to me, I'm gonna think of a specific encouragement to share with them.

Maybe not in that moment. That would be that would might seem like you're being a wise guy about it, but but um But model what you hope and pray their response to you will be because if no one's i if i if it's just one big I don't either.

Lisa:
Probably from the bowl cuts in the bowl cuts from the seventies.

Doug:
Yeah, Grace Brad Brad did a great message on this I heard r recently was speaking somewhere and He talked about this this graceless world that we live in. People just don't want to give each other a break. Thrilled to demand.

They're more than thrilled to demand you give them a break. Right. But um but Brad's whole point just was that that uh if we're not modeling it ourselves we can't really expect it from other people.

Brad:
I went back and checked the notes. the the word of God, it's it's tested, it's true, it's been proven over and over again. And so I would first of all say that that if you're someone that you're like, I don't know so much about do I lean into what the word of God says?

Just please look into it because when you when you look at how true and perfect the word of God is that when you look at how much of a track record it is, you look at historically archaeology-wise, I I was it's a big word. I was gonna say archaeological list you said it the uh and the but you look at that and it's been proven in so many ways it can be trusted Because God can be trusted. So w the things you're saying, Doug, they're they have a root in the word of God, and that's where people need to turn first and foremost.

I just want to say that w we have a lot of laughs together. We do. Um and I but Uh I I hope people listening know because some I I think may think well that's nice you guys have that.

Right. Um That's disagreements. No, we we are I actually when I talk to people, you're saying you forgive me.

I'm sorry. We work together, we serve together, and we always agree on everything.

Lisa:
Or are they wondering is it?

Brad:
I disagreed with Brad whether he should wear that sweater.

Lisa:
He's being f He really is more than you.

Brad:
Yes. I don't have a problem with that at this time of year.

Lisa:
There we go. We're Scottish. We're part Scottish.

Brad:
Our personalities actually are probably reflected in what we're even wearing today. But I think that the The when you look at that, I when you look at what the Word of God has to say, I think the what we're able to come back to is that W I I go to Ephesians 2 10 where you look at we are God's masterpiece. God has created us.

And so when you know Your identity is in Christ when you know who who you are and whose you really are few pictures you have of yourself in that. Exactly. That's what I really mean by the children.

Lisa:
pictures.

Brad:
But it that's why so when we when there are disagreements, when there are rough times, we we're able to go back to the things you shared, Doug, as far as yes, how would I want to treat someone else because I certainly have made mistakes along the way and how I've communicated and and and timing and everything else. But when you go back to that and you say, okay, so first of all, how would I want to be treated? And and I could take the first step in that, but also that The things that maybe someone else has said about me, maybe you're in a family where uh you just have been called awful names.

We we don't have that, fortunately. I am so grateful for that. But We when you've been called awful names or you've been defined by other people.

Lisa:
That you're not valuable.

Brad:
Yeah, it's important that you go back and say, no, I am God's master. piece. I am an image bearer.

I am creating God's image. That goes back to the very beginning of Genesis. That we are we have his just engraving on our lives.

So whatever someone else has said, what if you're going to hang out with family around the holidays or any other time, don't view it as a time of dread. View it as a time to go in and and say, I can go in with confidence because I know I'm not defined by what someone else says.

Lisa:
Right.

Brad:
And maybe you'd have an opportunity to help someone else see who they really are. And and part of that is h through how we communicate, Doug, and the words we say.

Doug:
Dad said he said that that uh The only one who gets to decide your value is the one who made you.

Lisa:
Right.

Doug:
And he says you're valuable valuable enough to die for.

Lisa:
Right.

Doug:
Um that that always s stuck with me.

Lisa:
That's it. I am wondering we do have funny things of where maybe we didn't feel a special pictures, what backseat, whatever. But what are some things in our relationships with each other that is that have made us feel special?

And I'm gonna start with this one that Doug you've been encouraging, both of you have been, but uh there were some things that you've said even in recent months to me that have been So encouraging and I mentioned that to you. It was like specific encouragement. And you're pretty you have a pretty full life and schedule and you know you don't always expect that.

you know, when you you give loved ones kinda bandwidth because we all are juggling a lot. But it was really unexpected and really meant a lot to me, the things that you said and So uh that's something that even just recently has made me feel special.

Doug:
So I'm grateful to have the example, your example of Um what the gospel looks like on a day by day, decision by decision Um relationship by relationship. I my I can't tell you how many times I've I've said to my kids, hey, listen to what Aunt Lisa is doing. to show people her savior in um she she made cookies all night and delivered them all over town or she she wrote these cards.

She's so tired and she's so and And she's got all this other stuff to h th we've all got a lot on our plates and and um and and yet she took the time to make sure, especially that people uh that people needed to know that someone was thinking of them, hurting people, uh people in the hospital. Um And and I mean I I don't have a better example in my life, in or outside of my family, someone that lives that out. And so I'm grateful for that example.

I i you have you have you do that towards me as well, but to be able to say to our three kids, you know, look at look at what this looks like on a On a day-by-day basis.

Lisa:
See there's that encouragement.

Brad:
Well, I got to be on the receiving end of that. First of all, I'll say that uh Doug and his wife Anna encouraged me on a very regular basis when I was a bachelor out uh in uh living in a native community and just working with young people there and everything and I they uh put up with a whole lot of knocks on the door. Uh when I would just be coming over from my little trailer and be like, I need food.

Uh or I whatever. And I and so they would welcome me and host me well and I Um eventually Doug would kick me out. But that was understandable.

Doug:
Um We had a timer.

Brad:
Yeah, two AM rolls around. It's time to go.

Doug:
Uh but for that was a hard situation to be in though.

Brad:
It was. Um but to uh then to have to be your community. They absolutely were.

And for uh for me though with uh you lease the um you know so I'll I'll just tell the story of uh when I did not ask this question. No, our firstborn. Well you uh but it's uh question.

We had um uh Carissa, our oldest daughter, our firstborn, she Um we were getting ready to uh just have uh time dedication at the church we were attending out there in Arizona. And uh we um and Lisa called just kind of an encouragement the night before. She was chatting with me uh on the phone and um we wound up talking about pizza which isn't rare.

Uh we uh I'll I'll usually bring it up in a conversation but Um she uh and and all of a sudden uh we're still chatting and there's a knock at the door. And Lisa was living in Jersey at the time still, yes.

Lisa:
Uh no here. I we were in the middle of the country. Yes.

Brad:
And uh and I all of a sudden there's a knock at the door. And it's Lisa holding a pizza, uh, and she had made her way, had no idea. Sarah and I had no idea about it, uh, just to come.

be there for that special moment. And so I think the way that you have uh maximized some of the special moments, uh that's that's one thing that has meant a lot. And I think that uh kind of binds us together as a family as well that we are we want to celebrate things together.

And I think we saw that in mom and dad. Mom and dad wanted to even when dad was traveling a lot, he wanted to be there for the special moments. He wanted to make sure he wasn't missing important things.

And yeah, we didn't feel like he was on the road a ton because he was there for the for key times and he made the most of those times with us. And uh and so I think that that was a reflection of that, Lisa, just when all of a sudden you show up for that special moment in a different state. Uh well you guys Which wasn't easy.

Let me put it make it clear. It wasn't easy to get to where we were uh living at the time either.

Doug:
You know what that what that gives you when you live your life like that is it gives you authority. It gives you author there's positional authority, we've got bosses or or whatever at work, but it gives you it gives you personal authority in people's lives. And it really gives you authority to do a podcast like this. Because because who wants to listen? Uh you you have the authority to speak into hard things because you enter into those things with other people.

Lisa:
Because life is messy.

Doug:
Especially life with us.

Brad:
But I'll say that if uh For uh people who are wondering what can I do to maybe extend an olive branch to a family member, what is something special that they maybe have coming up in their life that you they would Yes, no one's gonna take the time to come to. And maybe they're saying, Man, my brother, my sister, they're not gonna show up for this. What if you'd made that mo made that you don't have to go to everything. Do something unexpected.

Lisa:
Like an anniversary dance.

Brad:
They were thinking exactly. We can post that video later and you can learn it. Oh I have an unfortunate video.

I cared enough, even if we don't have the best relationship that people think, well, the I that would be weird to do that. Maybe that's the point. Maybe it's so out of the norm for your relationship with your siblings that they would say, it would give you an opportunity, especially if you love Jesus.

And all of a sudden, they are like, why did you do this? Right. Because I have been loved.

I want to love better. I mean, it just gives so many opportunities to just have Joy and peace and maybe some rebuilding of bridges in a relationship.

Lisa:
with you guys and uh like I even said of driving three days non stop to see your first nephew

Doug:
We like to celebrate together.

Lisa:
We were a lot younger. We really do.

Doug:
We were a lot younger.

Brad:
It was easier to do that. Yes. But it was it was pretty

Lisa:
We might have to be able to do that.

Brad:
I mean that was we were really excited there before that was growing up.

Lisa:
But see, that's the thing of celebrating our family. uh really celebrating and our parents didn't always have, you know, resources for things, you know.

Doug:
Um The older you get the more you realize that was a thing.

Lisa:
Right. And even the road trips like We didn't realise till we were adults. I honestly don't know if I've ever said this to to Dad, but I'm sure he took some money mm that he was being paid to speak somewhere to bring his family along and put up with us in the backseat, you know.

And uh and those created memories and we were able to visit some places and have that time together where it didn't seem like he was always gone and things. You know, and our mom also made it special. Like I I know I think Dad has said there were things in his um in his suitcase from us as kids sometimes and our both of our parents have a huge sense of humor and and our family just can I have a lot of laughter, but uh I we really do love celebrating each other, you know, and the different milestones in life, whether it's graduations and things and Uh one thing I want to touch on too.

Um you each had a child born who needed a surgery when they were really little. That's really rough. And I remember at the time we did not know if um if uh your child was gonna survive You know, we prayed for uh uh our our nephew.

We knew that uh he might not survive in utero, he might not survive uh birth and and all of that might not survive his first surgery, heart surgery, open heart surgery at two days old. But um that is uh something you know the you you read the Lord gives, the Lord takes away, and you still chose to hang on to God during some of that. Can Either and your son had a surgery as well where I know it was really rough.

But he had to be didn't he have to be like choppered to a didn't

Brad:
We've had we've had a couple of uh instances just where um we we knew Praise God. It's similar to with Doug and Anna. We knew before Caleb was born that there were some challenges.

Uh a and uh he had cleared A lot of hurdles, long story short, had cleared a lot of hurdles, uh, aced a lot of tests early in uh life, which was great. Um, it's uh he could have been born with a very uh serious heart condition, but Um he wasn't. Uh and uh and so he did have to have surgery when he was three days old and I I really struggled in that because he had cleared so many hurdles. I felt like the Lord was entering one prayer after another.

I'm just like, oh, well God's got this then. We're gonna head home in a couple days and we're good. And then we got that news and it was just like I didn't, I didn't, I it just was a lot to take in.

And I remember Sarah and I just had to, we're getting advice because it wasn't a Absolutely necessary surgery, but highly recommended to head off some things that could be issued, especially since we were living far from any hospital at the time. So we're getting advice from people and we're getting doctors, nurses, mom and dad. I mean, all these people are getting and it just was all these voices and so Sarah and I were like We we have to leave the hospital for a few minutes.

And I think some were just like, uh, we need a decision here. And we're like, we'll be back soon, but we needed to just reset for a minute. And so we just sat in our car in the hospital parking lot.

We didn't go anywhere. And it was just like, okay, we're we're do we need to listen to the Lord and to know that I he w once again, it's been a recurring theme I know for me in my life where he asked similar questions as far as Am I not enough? Have I ever failed you?

Have I and I just I'm just like Yes, you are enough. No, you've never failed me, so I know I can trust you. And so we're able to go into that situation then with peace.

It is. And and I and we're able to then go into that situation with peace of saying Well, all right. The Lord's brought us this far.

Uh he's given us this new life. Uh and Caleb. He's he's gonna i it's in he's in his hands anyway.

And So, um, everything went well and uh I but it was you learn in those seasons. You get through in scary moments, especially with your children.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Brad:
And it's like, do I trust? Do I really trust?

Lisa:
And we really want to hold on tight at those moments too. But it's like okay God, really, I've nothing else I I can do at this moment. And uh d are we gonna release and I love that you pulled away what an incredible intentional choice in that moment to like okay we gotta extra care ourselves from all the input, we gotta go to the one who has the best input and and see, like take all of that and then okay, God, what do you want with this? And Wow. And do you have anything to add to that with you know that's probably a whole nother episode, honestly.

Doug:
It is. There's there's so much because Taylor uh i i has legitimate Miraculous moments in his life where where uh he has amazed doctors and I've seen surgeons. I have seen a surgeon. Just go, what happened here? This I he went in to do work and he said it looked like it was it had already been done and it was i there's there's a lot of that in Taylor's life.

Lisa:
Well I would just say that great physician.

Doug:
Definitely. I would just say that that it's important to rec to know as a especially if you trust in God. that nothing that's happening in your life that is really hard and challenging is random.

God hasn't forgotten about you. God hasn't uh it didn't go, oh oops, they're there that just happened to them, uh he allows and and sometimes sends difficulty. I know that that that's um I mean that is that is straight out of God's word and and so you'll have some guys on TV who will tell you, no, no, you're supposed to always be rich and happy and and there's there's there's even Jesus wasn't even Jesus wasn't there's nothing about but but the bottom line is I uh with with the the uh uh uh luxury of of retrospective now, of of perspective that I had never I've never learned more about God and the body of Christ and provision and his power and taking him at his word, uh, than I have through Taylor's life.

And and so just know if you're going through a hard time right now, maybe you are physically, maybe it's financial. uh maybe it's relational. That that uh God is certainly you can't always see it, but he is certainly working his good.

And is and uh and and works all things, not just the fun things, but works all things to the good for people that love him. And uh even when you can't see it, that's what Brad Brad brought up, trust. I know God has this, even though I'm not enjoying this right now.

That is the key to having peace in your life or just going through life a a complete mess.

Lisa:
And and uh so much wisdom and And also even at the moment you had prayed and things were going great and then it's like there was a you know, a sharp turn that wasn't so great. And sometimes God doesn't answer things the way we hope but they're still it it's not random. Like he's he really does walk with us through that. And I love how you guys have shared 'cause those were some pretty Big times and a a huge thing with that too, we didn't even have a family texting thread then, which we do now, which gets rather than the colour.

Doug:
Well we do not have the family texting threat.

Brad:
Yeah, and that's another episode in another episode. Yeah, that's uh another four The four parter. We can bring in the kids for when they're included in those and they're so excited about that.

Lisa:
Well that's why it's so funny we have like a cousin lovey's thread yes and then we have the levee's threads.

Lisa:
How many new texts I didn't know I didn't know it could go that way. It's quadruple digits

Lisa:
How's that possible? It is really fun because we have a lot of chaos in there, but we also know we can drop something. Celebrating each other's our nieces and nephews will drop something in there.

Could you please pray? You know it'll be read and prayed for and cared about. Yes.

And there's so much prayer that where we've all prayed for each other. That is a really special thing as siblings. You know, I remember thinking when mom passed away, I'm like, oh my goodness, she prayed so much for us.

And I'm like, I know we all pray so much for each other. It's like no one else can die yet. It's like because we really value a treasure that very much.

Brad:
And let me let me say on that least that um the we talk about these answered prayers. Um there are things from uh each of our lives when it comes to health stuff, whether it's ours or children's, where it didn't go as planned. It didn't go the way that we would have that we were asking the Lord uh for.

And it doesn't change that he is good and that he is faithful and it's those things you mentioned, Doug, that we have to remember in those times we have to choose to remember and to say that Lord, I know you are still good and that I can still trust you. And that really the the biggest time for that in our lives was the loss of mom. I mean we were there with her.

Uh and it was and we we were praying and we were and we had seen him bring her back from some hard situations.

Lisa:
Right.

Brad:
And I think all of us for a stretch at least were believing he would do it again. That we were just like, you know what? He had.

And she had been in a in a Good health stretch and it had just been like w so he's gonna bring her back. He's gonna do it. And then there's that moment of realization that He's gonna heal her, but not the way we want uh in this, not the way that we're praying for.

And and to have that moment of saying, we We've still got to trust the Lord for his plan and she is healed like never before and we know we get to see her again because of the relationship we each have with Jesus and that we chose in our our lives and uh that mom certainly did and dad did. Um but to know that uh in those moments that we're we still it was a new season for us, that it was a it's different walking through reef together as a family. And we had

Lisa:
And we all greeted the game.

Brad:
We had lost like you said, we had lost grand exactly. We had lost grandparents, but we weren't as close with them because we w didn't live close with them. We didn't get to see them very much.

So we loved them and we went to funerals and everything. But this was this was very, very different. And so it was a learning curve for for dad for all of us.

And I w if you're going through Man, I know that grief tears family uh families apart. I know that how because I think everyone expects the other person to grieve the way they are, that it's like Either you're grieving too fast, too slow, you're uh not enough.

Lisa:
Yeah, you're la you know, yeah.

Brad:
And and I think it's important for people to know that that's one of the things we learned about each other as yeah, as adults, that it's like Okay, we don't know each other completely because all of a sudden we're looking at that and it's like, man, I'm different than Lisa and different than Doug, and we're all different from each other in that. But again We all have the same rock, the same foundation in this relationship with Jesus. So we were able to navigate through that.

I I know that there's a lot of people who are still trying to figure out who Jesus is and what the what they're supposed to do with him and everything. All I know is that I can say for me. I just can't I've thought about it multiple times over the years.

It's been almost ten years now that since we lost mom and I don't know how I could have done it without Jesus. I don't know how people are able to do it without Jesus. I know people do, but for me to not have that foundation I I I don't know where I would have been, what a choices I would have made.

So anyway, I just want to mention that because I know that loss is a big dividing thing in families. Just know that you have a God who loves you and who wants to walk through you even through those hard times. And we certainly learn that as a family.

Lisa:
I I think one other thing is uh so many people feel like they're alone walking through grief. And I don't know that I ever I I felt like we were all walking through grief. But I do think something within our uh but we weren't alone because it we were walking through it but I never felt alone.

Lisa:
Like I knew we were each walking through it in our own way.

Lisa:
Uh but I do think as siblings I don't think we ever decided this, but we give each other space. Like we don't I don't know that we've ever commented on each other's parenting. I don't think we've I uh you know what I mean?

We never said you're not grieving right or you know, I feel like it's just kinda something when I was thinking about this even, we kinda give each other just space. If that makes sense. Okay, new podcast coming up.

And I don't know that we ever minding your own business sometimes is just is grace. Right. And that's really not that we don't have like maybe thoughts for each other or pray for each other with things, but like You know what I mean?

We um uh you know, I know we all had different thoughts and people we dated and my husband had to bribe you guys

Doug:
With baseball cards, but you know, it worked. It's all that matters.

Lisa:
It didn't I do wanna uh also touch on we could probably have five million episodes just on all kinds of things, but Uh I did want to touch on like the anniversary of mom. You know, I'm glad you brought that up. And um I wanted to also just kind of see, do you have a certain Christmas memory?

I actually have one that I in particular I wanted to bring up. I will never forget there was a Christmas Eve. I'll give you guys time to think.

when someone called, we grew up near a pretty big um medium sized city, Patterson, New Jersey. Someone calls and there are some people who were not gonna have a Christmas Christmas basically. And uh I remember mom and dad said, is there anything we could find to, you know, give uh give some people?

And Doug went and got like his it was a pretty new red fire truck

Brad:
This is one of his favorite things.

Lisa:
Yeah. And it was like the way God prompts our hearts. And this is why a lot of times I'm like, if God prompts a child's heart to do something you know, we kinda need to listen as a parent and not just be like, oh no, no, no, you know. But, you know, just kinda give a little Space for that too, but I will never forget that.

Doug:
when you look back on it, the reason that happened was because we had already had that that modeled for us with our parents. True. That that the reason someone can come to your door and go You know, i we we didn't have a we had more than others, a lot of people had more than we did, but that was never really a focus in our family.

And so We just knew that our parent when we saw our parents, when they saw someone in need, they did this with their time all the time. That they were very generous with it. And so it it's I in those moments what you have been modeling for your kids come out.

Lisa:
Do you have a particular memory?

Brad:
You know, I think what sticks out to me really is just the the feeling that we still have in our Christmases together where uh it's just being in the room together sometimes with the uh chaos of the moment of just so much happening and then but a lot of times just that wait everyone let's focus this is a special gift coming up and and we because Our family hasn't been about just getting gifts. It's been about getting things for each other that we know mean something that have that it's just like, man, this is something that I know this person and I want to bless them with this because I know what it's gonna do for their heart. And so I think the The way that mom and dad together laid a foundation for just the right focus on Christmas, focusing on Jesus, um the right feel of why we give.

Um, that it's not about excess and it's not about all these other things. It's about we're we're giving out of love because Christ first loved us and we've got to realize how much he gave for us. And so we're we're reflecting his generosity uh in so many ways in what we do and all those things are just lessons learned from mom and dad.

Uh the the standard they set for us. And so giving things away to people in need or giving gifts to each other or just being with each other. It's all about this experience of doing life together and really trying to love each other like Jesus does.

Lisa:
And I I think it's special that God gives you people to do life with. One last thing I want to touch on and that is both of you are very generous people and at Christmas I know some of this stems from also Doug, um I you know, Anna, my my sister-in-law, your wife grew up on the reservation, Christmas Um they really couldn't have a Christmas. There were she's one of thirteen and um you know just

Brad:
Yeah, we no we didn't I can't imagine. I really can't imagine peanut craps.

Lisa:
Like I know mom was was great like stretching Can you imagine? Oh my goodness. That backseat, that would have been a van.

I don't even know. Further apart to poke each other when our hands are folded. Um, but I it was pretty slim.

You know, I know she maybe got a toothbrush or so you know, and and y so you guys have done some things over the years just uh I know you do these things privately. But I just I just feel like sometimes we walk through certain experiences in life that uh anybody and it causes us to want to Be generous back. And another thing is children's hospitals.

You've been in the hospital with your son. So have you. Children's hospitals with those urgent

Brad:
surgeries and Praise God for children's hospitals.

Lisa:
And you know, be able to give and stuff. Do you guys have any tips just for how to be generous at Christmas? And you don't have to break the bank either. You know, it could be just a Yeah, it's a good thing.

Brad:
No, that's the key. You just candy a gift of whatever. No, I'm just kidding.

Because you do that. Yes, you you live it out and that's where we each want to do that, where we are saying, you know what, the uh w help someone be seen. So it that's really what comes to my heart because it's not well well it is because some people are able to do more.

And and that's great. And and so we we're very grateful when people can do more. For us, it's I mean there was a some big sale uh this year of toys and we're just like it was like 70% off some like good toys.

Like Bluey stuff, which I know someone's gonna want. And so we're like, okay, we're just gonna buy a bunch of it and we dropped it off uh the local place here and it's And so for us that was doable because it was it w didn't cost as much. And then um but even with that, it's I I am willing to sacrifice and I know each of you are you're willing to sacrifice things for yourself to give things to your children.

Lisa:
Mm-hmm.

Brad:
So I know each of us wants to see our children have our children see we're willing to do that for others as well. And and not just that we give to each other, but we give outside of the family as well. And so if you're not going to be able to do it, you can't do it.

put together little kits with a couple dollar gift card to a McDonald's or something in there. Five dollars on a gift card and a few supplies, a hand warmers, something like that, where it's just saying It's not a lot, but it's saying, you know, I see you. I'm not just I'm not just driving by you.

Lisa:
So good.

Brad:
I'm doing something here. And I know there's all the well, how are they gonna use the money? Well maybe you just have a couple bucks in the car I don't know how everyone uses the money, but that's not that I want my I want my kids to be able to experience and I want to be a part of loving people where it's like I I want them to be be seen.

So even if it's just a little bit to give towards that. So that that's the big thing. I think that uh it doesn't have to be a lot.

It can be bacon cookies for someone bringing them by. Whatever it is where it's just like, oh my goodness, someone took time to notice me.

Doug:
In John one it says out of his fullness, we have all received grace in place of grace already given in other translations It says grace after grace after grace.

Lisa:
Beautiful word.

Doug:
And it uh if you have the heart of Christ, it you're you're going to have a generous heart. You just are. uh because of his example and all he's given to you.

I was profoundly changed during Taylor's um the during his hardships, uh uh seeing uh uh uh uh how it felt being provided for and people being generous with us and going I mean just out of the blue I don't even know how the people these people knew about that. for cab companies. Well and even though you could get a gift card for a cab company.

But it so it's just when you've seen and and received that and we all have grace after grace after grace when we have received it. How can you not want to be that for somebody else?

Brad:
Yeah, it's not about Anyone noticing it. It's not about doing it for show or whatever else, or even doing it for a receipt. It's uh for for write-off or whatever.

It is just saying I I just want to be a part of loving someone that maybe hasn't felt that love. And so Do something anonymously. Do something uh just to uh to show people that they matter and and it'll make a difference.

The point is is keeping it. Quiet, keeping it anonymous.

Lisa:
making people feel seen because we we have been loved that way by other people. You know, even uh the Thanksgiving that we prayed our n our parents weren't like overly concerned or freaking out and I don't even know if you guys remember that Because you guys were younger, but it was a lot of people. I don't. I've heard you share the story and it's awesome.

You probably feel like you know the story now, but I we prayed and then A couple hours later some people showed up with Thanksgiving dinner and that is a huge thing for me of how God You know, one of the reasons I've chosen to believe in God in my life, you know. So um we have been loved in that way. And I love it does make people feel seen.

And you know who did that best? Jesus. When God came to earth, Emmanuel, God with us, and what did he do?

He loved the people on the fringes, the people no one wanted to hang out with, the tax collector up in the tree, the short little guy. No one's gonna give him the time of day. And Jesus called him by name.

He didn't just even say, Hey you He knew his name and the woman who's at the well in the middle of the day 'cause she slept around with all these different men And she doesn't go to the well because all the women are talking about her, and Jesus goes then to tell her about the hope that he can give her. And so I love that Jesus saw people. And we live in a world that's really fast-paced and doesn't want to see people.

We blow by people all the time. And people just need to be seen and so much hope we can give. And um I want to throw something out there because I'm excited about it this in the holidays.

the new thriveinthe mess. com website.

Lisa:
Oh, it looks great. You gotta get on there.

Lisa:
There's some fun things even for the holidays on there too. encourage people. So I'm just uh thankful for that and um so you can post the home video of Lisa putting the Santa hat on me

Brad:
And uh post the home video, Brad, if we can find it.

Lisa:
But you see again, those things are we celebrate each other. Thank you to Brad and Doug, my amazing brothers, for being here. And friend, I hope you're leaving it with some just hope and encouragement, no matter what relationship things you might be walking through And this Christmas, I hope you can step into it just uh helping other people feel seen and just caring for yourself, giving yourself grace, giving other people grace. And friend, I hope you'll join us next time on Thrive in the Mess and Merry Christmas.

Lisa:
Merry Christmas.

Lisa:
Merry Christmas.