A Family For Me: Robert & Jessica's Journey | Foster Care, Adoption & International Special Needs

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey Friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

And today I'm excited to have a couple of friends with me on here. And we're talking about family today, but not just family. We are talking about foster care.

and adoption and international adoption with special needs. It's a whole mix and all in one family. So I don't know how this amazing couple does this, but I'm thrilled to welcome you, Robert and Jessica.

Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. You Thrive in the Mess every day. You might not feel like it, but You are some amazing people and I know sometimes we don't feel amazing, but it's just doing those everyday things that add up to being able to choose to thrive in the middle of all the things.

And I don't know how you even do car rider drop-off in the morning. You have six children And quick rundown, you have two biological children. Two children who you had in foster care years ago.

And we're asked to adopt more recently. So there's that. And then I actually met you all because of your youngest two.

I we were at a conference together and Robert, you were nearby, but I didn't see you first. I saw this precious Chinese girl. I thought she was Chinese, because my daughter's Chinese.

And she had Down syndrome. And I said, I have to know if she's Chinese, like my daughter. So I kind of was like, who is she with?

And I kinda wandered over to you, Robert. And you were so kind to start talking with me about that. And then it turned out I actually know your parents.

And you guys are at that conference. But uh but uh Robert, I kind of want to start with you because um I uh you know, you even just shared a little bit at that moment about uh special needs and then I realized she had her brother there also. He is special needs, but Um, just even what had you all ever talked about this, like dating?

Did you think when you were dating you would even have a family of six people literally from all different ethnicities and walks of life.

Robert:
So I I think things probably didn't go exactly the plan, but they they they went better than what what the plan was was going to be. We we talked about having five children when we were kind of dating and engaged and yeah that was kind of a a number we we kicked back and forth if uh I bet that was going to happen, but sort of where we ended up at is I think nowhere what uh we expected starting off. Yeah.

Jessica:
Uh I I think um I I look back on like memories and like that same conference we were at. I think years ago we were there and your dad might even have been the keynote speaker and we were young, we were newly married, maybe like year or two married, and this family was walking up from the lake. back up to the condos and they had a little uh girl that was from China, like they a a Chinese uh daughter.

And in the back of our minds we're like, ooh, I wonder if we could do that. And then but we never really like Like actually doing it. It was just like this tiny little little seed that was was planted.

Lisa:
God brought you guys Together as a couple and everything. Uh plan. I love Robert.

Sometimes we like to plan. But you know, God has some other things that He puts on our heart like that. And so but sometimes even when we plan it or even when it's a great thing that God brings into our life, it can be messy.

So you guys had two daughters and then what got your heart thinking for okay, not just adopting internationally But special needs, that is a whole nother um ball game because there's, you know, different threads to every story. It's not just uh you know, going overseas, but it's also medical stuff. Like that's I both of your children, your youngest um S a daughter and son have medical issues.

So how do you even step into that? That's a big commitment. Yeah.

Jessica:
I think that That we stepped into that after God had like refined our hearts. Um so we had, like Rob said, wanted five children and we had our two oldest and then after that we experienced um loss as we started to have our third and our fourth. And so um there was loss in that and then After that there was some infertility in that. And so we kind of began to realize like that that door to how we were gonna grow our family had closed. Uh or not closed, but paused

Lisa:
I want to jump in there. How do you deal with that mess? You have two children and then you get you've lost a couple and then you can't.

Jessica:
Do you mind talking a little bit about that mess scene? How do you deal with that mess Right. I think we joked.

I think we joked when we were planning um this this podcast. Do you want the therapist couch version or the the park bench version? The version you give to someone at the park.

Lisa:
Yeah. You can give whatever version.

Jessica:
Uh, how do you deal with it? Like honestly, I think we just kind of like shoved it down into uh uh in a drawer, closed the drawer and said, let's move on. I don't think that that was the healthiest way to deal with it. Um, and I think dealing with it that way probably is what led to our God refining our hearts and led to this Um, I think there was sadness, but also I think like you and I, you may agree, like our personalities are just you know, kind of like, okay, this happened, how do we move forward from it? We're not we're not real. You can do you wanna expound on that or do you agree

Robert:
Yeah, I think we um sort of take things a a as they they come and try to try to move the bust

Jessica:
Yeah. I think um so so in that like I think we just kind of were like, oh this is sad, cried a little bit, and then just kind of like we still have these other girls that we have to take care of and and we'll just see what happens. Um and so in that seeing what happens, we kind of thought about um adoption.

I had done a uh ladies' bible study and it was on the book of James. And in it a lot of um James talks about kind of like not our our salvation is through works, but that like when we are believers, like we are called to do some work And so um James One was true Christianity is helping widows and orphans in their need. And that really like tugged at my heart because I had always had this like feeling like I I had lost these children and I, you know, truly believe in the sanctity of life and I think life is precious and valuable.

Um But what do we what what are we doing to help people after after that? And so we were like, okay, what about this thing called foster care And we kind of did some research on it and we joke that we think we have ADHD because we're very much like very impulsive. We're like, oh, this sounds great.

Let's do it. Yeah, but we just were like one day we're like, oh, let's foster. And so we did.

And so we did all the the work towards it. In if you asked me then, twelve years ago, if you asked both of us, we would say, oh, we want to do it to help. other people.

But I think if you really examined my heart, I wanted to do it to grow my family. And that is the wrong reason to do foster care. Wow.

Uh foster care is the the goal of it is to get these kids healthy and to get their families healthy and reunify them. And so I think God knew that, that my heart wasn't ready for the the true, you know, the the true uh need in foster care. And so we had I mean three placements that were very short, like a week.

Like we get a baby and they'd be like the state would be like, oh no, this isn't, you know, we're you You have no control in foster care, not as a foster family. You just do what they say. Um and then we we received a a placement that was um more long term and um It was messy and hard and really um opened our eyes, I think, a little bit to the um brokenness in the world uh that we might not have seen before and opened our refined our heart a little bit on why you should do foster care Uh the goal is not adoption in foster care.

The goal is reunification.

Lisa:
Um and did you regroup at some point thinking Okay, this is not this is messier than we thought it would be. Yeah. And I this is not growing. our family, did you all kind of say, okay, this we need to step away from this or W one one thing that that really helped us

Robert:
and I'm I'm not sure if your your listeners uh maybe they they know people who are fostering or are uh going through some similar experiences but And the a after the uh longer placement ended, uh we had some friends who just invited us over, um, said, hey, come be with us at lunch and spend the afternoon here And I remember you uh just feeling a a great deal of uh comfort uh and love from them. We didn't ask a lot a lot of questions or or or prior whole out. We were just kind of together and able to sort of step out of our our house and um in in into their favor and just be really embraced by them and that that meant a a a lot or a lot to myself to either sort of um help us condition from that experience.

Jessica:
And and your question, that was kind of in the the heel like the the healing process because they're like when you when you um when f when children are reunified, you you grieve it because if you're doing this right, you're gonna love them on your own, knowing that they probably won't stay forever And so you grieve their loss, uh you grieve your loss, but truly going back to your family is a game. So you rejoice in that that game that they got that they were able to to return. And I think At the end of that, we thought, like you can do something called put a hold.

So we put a hold on our home and said, let's take a step back and see uh This is really, really for us. Um, and so when you asked, did we have that conversation? We did after that placement went back, um, went were reunified.

Robert:
And so we were kind of starting to to plan for where our family was going to to go after that. We had looked at uh moving kind of downtown in um in in our city.

Jessica:
And kind of seeking a life of comfort. I think if they we were just like, you know what?

Robert:
Have a a house with like fewer bedroom rooms and be like enough for us and maybe be the the the older girls too And kind of looking for uh sort of orienting our life towards, yeah, like you said, more like uh our own comfort

Jessica:
Our own comfort and desires and like, you know, we were just I think we both like at first were like, all right, well this isn't for us. I guess we're just gonna have these two kids. So Let's move to someplace fun. Let's just give our kids these experiences. And you call this our running detarshish moment. I don't know how you're

Lisa:
Oh, I d I think of it just for anyone who's not familiar with the story, the um I in the Bible I You know, Jonah is trying to run away from what God's putting on his heart and saying, okay, God wants me to go that way. I'm gonna go that way. So I that's really a great analogy of you guys were like, okay, well, God's kind of put some of this on our heart, but we're gonna go that way.

Jessica:
Yeah, you want us to do something hard and uncomfortable and that was too much. So see you later.

Robert:
So so that sent a whole.

Jessica:
He literally sent a whirl. Like no it's uh we're not kidding. Like we were we he sent It's a event that really just was like eye-opening.

It was like being in the belly of the whale that he uh brought us out of to the point where like I mean we were as a family kneeling in our driveway praying thanking God for his protection in the event and there'd been a pretty significant hailstorm uh that that went through and interfered with uh the the the real estate transaction but that we were trying to do selling our house. Buying the house and left us liable for like our entire house we were selling was like literally destroyed. And oh my goodness.

And this storm happened the night before we closed on it. And so like hours before we closed on it. So we were liable for our homely owned and we still had to fulfill our contract, which was a large financial burden on us and It was just a very stressful, literally three days in the belly of the whale just to Um, and it God resolved it and it was great.

But in that moment, I think you as the, you know, as our leader of the family were like, nope. We're not doing this. This is not this is not us.

We're not we're not called for comfort. This was and we just kind of took a pause. We settled and we were like, okay, let's just pause, let's regroup, let's figure out what God has for us, how we can serve Him and and And so we did.

We paused for about a year. And then I met this sweet woman. I room mommed with her at my kids' school.

And she had some children adopted from China. internationally and I was like, can you do that? How do you do that?

Tell me more. And she was just so great about say Call these people, do this, do that, like hold holding my hand. And at that time you had been sent to California for work and you were gone on like a six month sort of thing.

So I was alone at home stewing and thinking and I sent you the stewing. It's like I'm lying. What Can we do?

And um I think Robert learned to not go away after that. I sent you a picture of this baby in this like um pink outfit and it was Like the Michelin man. Um, I think in the orphanages they layered them with clothes and so big puppy, cute little kid in pink.

And you said No. I was like, no, what are you doing? And I was like, uh, yes, let's do this, let's do this. And you were like, no, let's not do this.

And I was like, yes.

Robert:
Um because so a a as we were like trying to like go away from what could be uh the the kind of that I think that God wanted to take us on if moving away he he put um obstacles there to sort of redirect us back to um what believe he he wanted for for our family. But then uh like Jess mentioned, um as we started to sort of follow what what's will was, he um like provided the the the finances and yeah time and the resources but you mentioned i i was out out for california so there there were like additional financial incentives from from work which

Jessica:
We're able to cover the entire cost of the adoption. Yeah.

Robert:
Exactly what what the the cost was.

Jessica:
And and just like I I think we I was joking you said yes no yes no yes no in in the end like it Rob Rob's very uh logic. I think you eat literally capped a lot. You're like, okay.

Because I was very much like, no, this is our child. We need to do this. You're like, okay, let's cast lots.

And he did. And Obviously Hudson's here, so that's the that's the way the die rolled. And uh um but I mean talk about like God providing.

We have just like this veracous story about um our our son like um China had used to have a policy when you did international adoption that you could have multiple children And the day I saw hi his picture, China had changed the policy that you could not have more than five uh five children in your home And without me knowing, um, our son had been committed to another family. And that family had more than five children. So they no longer could adopt uh adopt her son.

And um I didn't know this. And so I just that day sent in an email saying, hey, we're really interested in this this this file. Can we see it?

I did not realize that I was the first one to send an email out of like fifty different families that um had come in to say, uh this this particular family, they were very grieved by the loss.

Lisa:
I bet.

Jessica:
And they sent they created like this um social media sort of call for someone to come in and 'cause they didn't want him to stay in at the orphanage. Right. I hadn't seen that. I had no idea that this was even happening

Lisa:
And then basically they they were hoping to find a family and put something out there that you were unaware of and okay. Since they could not wow.

Jessica:
Yes And we were the first ones to um to send an email, but we had no idea that this was happening. And the adoption agency was like, oh, you're the first one And we're like, the first one? What do you mean?

So then they they brought to light what happened and we were like, oh my goodness, like God literally moved. mountains and changed international policy for this boy to be in our family Um, and just in God's providence and amazement, a girl I went to high school with was the speech therapist for the family that was going to adopt this family and connected us because she knew their story, she knew my story, and she was like, oh, Jessica! I know these people.

And so now that family gets to see our son grow up. And we have this beautiful connection where she's always so encouraging and like It's just it's just amazing how like little things like that.

Lisa:
You know, we talk about in my family uh growing up and with our children too, of God sightings, just seeing the hand of God in things And wow, that's a bunch.

Robert:
You know and it's also part part of the the process is that the uh regulations and the procedures They can change frequently and in the middle of these these long uh long processes. So that's just kind of part of

Jessica:
Yes, you have to be like talk about messes, like you know you've done it, like the paperwork, right the the unknown, you're at the mercy of so many factors. You fall in love with this picture and this person that you think you know and there's just So much that goes that goes into it.

Lisa:
As I hear the two of you talk, I cannot help but uh jump back to what you talked about in uh because the Bible talks about orphans and widows and uh in you talked about that uh uh the book of James and that word in there also in other um in some other versions of the Bible It talks about the widows and orphans in their distress. And I'm like, you and you had read the version need instead of distress. And I actually looked up distress.

Like we know what distress is. But I looked it up and it literally is extreme anxiety, sorrow, or pain. So literally I think of whether It is uh now foster care still they're having turmoil and roller coaster things at home, but they're going through extreme anxiety, sorrow, pain, uncertainty, the unknown.

I where am I going to go next? And and you think of even in an orphanage on the other side of the world whether, you know, our daughter, your two of your children their distress and they might not know they're going through distress, but our body and our minds and our spirits know that distress. You know, we might not be able to call it that.

So So I uh I I love that you all have chosen to open your lives at home with that, but you don't just have your son from China, you also have your daughter. So and I'm trying to remember are they related or no? Like biologically?

They're not. Okay. So how did that come around for her?

Yeah. So uh I

Robert:
While we were um adopting our son, I'm trying to uh we we met some other families who were also going through a a similar process. And um When when Jess was kind of reviewing the medical needs for our our son, one thing I said, well, uh, how is his an amendmental uh uh abilities. I I was real concerned about all being a a a a child I I could communicate with him and we we're able to to take care of his his medical needs and So I I was uh at that time not sure I was ready to uh adopt a child with uh like significant cognitive impairment. Oh.

Jessica:
I think even like I'm gonna kinda throw you under the bus a little bit, but even like in China at the first day we had a you literally looked at me and you were like How is he mentally? What do you think? Cause and I was like, I I don't know I had a we we got a good day.

He's cute. He's great. He's perfect But you were very, very uh concerned and nervous about that.

And got again in his like just his um what did your grandma say like he was

Robert:
Got a sly.

Jessica:
Gotta sly. So like in his slyness, he paired us with a family who had adopted a child with Down syndrome. And that little boy will just melted Robert's heart.

For two weeks we spent time with him. And he was this just precious, perfect little boy. And I think we were on the plane to come home to America and he looked at me and he said, In one year we're going back and we're gonna adopt a child down syndrome And I was the one that was like Excuse me.

Lisa:
You guys are awesome, like You text him a picture of and then he's just telling you, Hey, we're coming back and adopting a child with that syndrome. I love it that you guys But here's the other thing. The two of you earlier said uh you just have a uh um I d I don't know what uh to call it.

I'm gonna call it maybe Tigger in a way that just some bounceability of going through life and kinda rolling with things. And I feel like that's a practical takeaway that flexible for when you're in the mess. Because you all have a lot of mess.

You're you're juggling schedules and activities for six individuals, uh medical issues, things like that, and that flexibility But also there's that openness of being willing to, okay, God's pointing us this way, kind of pushing my heart this way or this way. And I love that also as a couple you're open to what the other person says. Now yes, Rob said no, but uh at that one point, but I love that you are able to still hear the other person and adapt to that.

So I love that flexibility you all have and the willingness to hear from each other. uh about, okay, maybe go this route. So, Robert, did you go back in a year and were you adopting a a girl with Down syndrome?

Robert:
I I I think it was even faster that than a year.

Jessica:
Um again, just those we have we get I get goosebumps all the time just thinking about how uh I think we did it in six months. Like crazy. But you can go ahead.

Robert:
Yeah, uh so ha having gone through the the process once, we were a little bit more f familiar with all the the paperwork steps that that we needed to go through. Um so so that helped, but but also I I think God God's hand was i in the process to um e expedite uh a lot of the the reviews and and the paperwork and took s several trips to the the consulate uh i in in the the the Chinese consulate in in the state to uh help Move things along. And it was right before COVID happened.

Jessica:
I think our daughter is probably wh the last 25 to 50 children to ever be adopted from China. We were there Thanksgiving twenty nineteen And January 2020 travel to China closed and no, there hasn't been adoption since then. And so again, just I mean we had uh the process took what six months, which normally takes, you know, eighteen.

Wow, God's timing. God's God's timing. Yeah, I think I was a little bit more reluctant to adopt our daughter with Down syndrome than uh this time just because um Our son was still new to the family and he had some uh our son is hearing impaired.

Um, and So intelligent, but hearing impaired and a little bit of uh boy, and he was just really hard and it was really messy And I was like, ooh, do we wanna, you know, add more to that? And then in adapting a child with Down syndrome, you really have to think about the future. Like Cognitively, I don't think she'll ever be able to live alone.

So that means that I'm going to be mothering her. forever till till I no longer can. And I was I was a little selfish and reluctant on that.

I was like, well wait a second. Like I want we've always talked about like the job of a parent is to Um, how do you put it?

Robert:
Work ourselves out of a job.

Jessica:
Work ourselves out of a job. Like we've always gone into parenting as like um I'm teaching you to be an independent adult. And so now I'm having to change that kind of perspective in my parenting because And so you what did you say?

You said something. You're like, are you kidding? You love being the mom.

How would you want it once you want to do this forever?

Robert:
Well but but then uh um uh uh on uh uh uh our our daughter's situation was a a little different. Um instead of being in a a group uh foster care setting in in China. She she was with a a foster family.

So it was a little bit different experience for her that that than our son. Um I assume that she had made an attachment um w with with with that family. So then when she came and what was placed with us, it was completely different.

And she was She almost didn't move for the first kind of day or two just from the shock and everything.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Robert:
But then even after that, I I think you experienced some rejection from her. Yeah. How how did that feel?

Lisa:
Uh oh, awful. You're like, I didn't want to do this to begin with in a way because you're kind of in the I was reluctant.

Jessica:
Not that I didn't want to, I'm just Once I said yes, like I'm all in, experienced definitely a lot of rejection from her, which I was I didn't really want much to do with me for like two years And it was a long time.

Lisa:
Talk about messy. Oh, yeah.

Jessica:
And so that's weird. That really makes you think like, how do you uh love someone that rejects you like that that was definitely how did you do that

Robert:
Well we we we didn't really have the the the the way to express it at the time, but Where we've gotten to now is our what our definition of love is. Yes. They say love is self-sacrifice so uh so that someone else can experience God's best.

Lisa:
Oh wow, that's powerful.

Jessica:
Yes. Yes. Because our family is a little little messy.

Like it's it's It's different. We have multiple children from with multiple different backgrounds and experiences and um And so you have to you have to I think you were very wise to kind of we we were talking through things and he's like no love is this And so once we we we got to that where I was like, okay, love is, you know, self-sacrificing because I want God's best for these children, no matter their response to me. Um That that was and it also worked through my pride because um with my older children, um I kind of wanted those cookie cutter kids who like excellent school, had great manners.

You should see if you look back at pictures of my our daughters, their hair going to school was perfect every day. Because I wanted to like represent this image of you know perfection that doesn't exist and that was just so people could say, oh wow, you're such a great mom. Oh wow Um, and so like through all that mess, God really like refined our hearts, or mine especially, to like, oh, this is what love is.

And this is what service looks like. And so yeah.

Lisa:
And perfection is not Uh you know, kudos to you for your daughters having great looking hair. I cannot say the same for like my daughter. You know, it really I literally remember someone saying to me one time It's St. Patrick's Day and your child does not have a green shirt on.

Like I'm shocked. Like I don't even know. Think about it.

I don't dare you. But I was kind of surprised, but they sometimes people think it uh whoever has it all together and it's not possible. There everyone has messed somehow and the uh perfection isn't real and therefore that's why I love having these conversations that walk into the mess because people feel like we're so alone.

Like I'm sure there are other families where biological, adopted, foster care, whatever, where they're not feeling that love back from their child, whether they are little teenager, I think a lot of parents feel like okay, I'm not feeling much of anything from my from my childhood.

Jessica:
Even yeah even adults. My second daughter, she ha for Christmas I bought her a locket because she's very Um, I don't want to say cold, but like very stoic. And I'll say, Oh, I love you, and she'll go, I know.

And so for Christmas, we bought her a locket. And on the inside, one side says, I love you. And the other side it says, I know.

Oh, I love that.

Lisa:
We need our people where they're at. Yes. I feel like everyone is different.

Yeah. Yeah. And even uh you know, you have you have twice as many children as we do.

We have three. So But you meet I I think one thing I learned as a parent is every child is unique and different. And um and then you also have other things.

So I I just want to focus in a little bit on your um on your youngest daughter who's from China who we're referring to, uh I am I remembering correctly, is she verbal? Uh is that an ongoing thing and then so and did she I also want to jump back to um did she ever warm up and feel like okay Yeah.

Jessica:
So um our youngest daughter with Down syndrome, we adopted her when she was two. She was nonverbal um at the time. And um she is now she turns eight on Saturday.

Oh my goodness. It's been six years that she's been part of our family. Did she warm up to me?

Probably last year. To be honest, it took a good five five years. And it sh is she verbal?

Not really. Um her favorite thing to say is nah. That's what she would do to me.

She would go, like, hi, you know, do you want can I have a hug? She uh does know some sign have some words. So ice cream, we know that one.

Popcorn, we know that one. Wait, what was that one? Popcorn.

Popcorn, okay. Chips Um she knows her brother's name. Oh, she knows my name.

Not mom, dad. Uh but being nonverbal does not mean she is not non-communicative. I joke.

Uh we have a lapperdoodle that we've had for about six months now, and she is the only one who has dominance over that dog. So she's she's okay. Um but I think it goes to kind of um a a conversation of value Um, where does one get their value?

Is is your value based on your uh capabilities? Or is your value based on something else? And we have And you're talking about her value or your value?

Lisa:
Because at the same time you're being told nah, you know that's a lot mentally, that can do a number on anybody. Yeah. Even if you're like I'm loving, self sacrifice. Your guy's beautiful definition Robert shared, but Like to be told now all the time, that would be that's a mother. Yeah.

Jessica:
You would you would think like, oh, um, we had always told our child our our older children and all of our children that Your value comes from the fact that you were created in the image of God and he loved you. And that's it. It's not something you do, it's not something you don't do.

It just is. And so having honor or having our daughter reject me made me have to say, oh, is my value in being a mother? Is my value being in a good mom and my kids loving me and wanting to spend time with me?

Or do I truly believe what I've been teaching my kids that my value is in that I've been created in the image of God and He loves? He loves me.

Robert:
And so I love how like in the Yeah, you you you don't want to put your value in in the your your children's performance or their their decisions and kind of what w the their their achievements. Um because like ultimately they they're going to be r responsible for for those um where whereas our our responsibility as parents we felt is to to to really show Christ to them and and and train them and and teach them, but what they take from that and in and the choices that that they make. Like those are are then the then their choices. And i if they're they're good choices, that doesn't mean we're we're better parents or or or or or better people. If they make the wrong choices, the the same thing, it it doesn't detract from the fact that we were faithful to to do what we were supposed to do, even though it it really hurts sometimes.

Lisa:
Yeah. Right. That's so good.

And you know, I can't help but think in the middle of all this and Robert, you're the dad of this family, and a lot of times a dad However, they treat their child is how their child views God because the Bible talks about him as our uh when we choose to have a relationship with God, he he can be our heavenly father. And I think of how many times do we go nah to God? Like I don't want you as a part of my life.

And he still loves us you know, he still has that un the only one who has unconditional love. But I also want to touch on with that role, even the um just being involved and having that involved father. you know, the loving father that you I I just so appreciate hearing your heart with that because that's just so powerful of um an example of who God is to us And I you know, as humans, we are not perfect and we make mistakes, but still you are showing them that that uh that love and care.

But also talking about just being hands-on in our in the lives of our children. I know I was texting Jessica recently and you were out for a study treat with your two oldest. Your two oldest uh daughters and uh and I'm like, wow, you know, it's it's intentional choices.

That's kind of a Uh I I want to hear a little more from you all about that individual time because six children, it's like you almost think of the Brady Bunch, you know, and and but you don't know did they ever really get individual time with like Mike and Carol Brady? I don't know. But it's kind of a bunch, but you took time.

You're taking time like as a study treat. Okay, the dad to go off and Uh if it was ice cream, I'm sure you didn't tell your youngest cause she would want to go along because she knows how to say ice cream. You know, they literally sat and ate it in the van.

To hide it from the other. Well, but that's a that's a uh that's a powerful thing. So uh Robert are there other ways you all do those you know, those hands-on moments where uh it's that individual tension.

Okay, we're gonna take the oldest girls for they're in the middle finals, you know, and uh at that moment and uh you know taking them out for that or taking the younger ones. I know you go camping and uh with like your younger children or the whole family and But are there other examples of just have intentional hands-on parenting of giving that individual attention?

Robert:
Yeah, I r r relationships take uh a a lot of energy and effort, but but also just just a a lot of time and in in being present. Um I I I think we're probably still uh adjusting to six children in in the household and figuring out exactly um kind of how to best allocate our our our time and energy uh acro across the children. And o often the the squeaking wheel gets gets the the the the grease.

So Uh we wanna be cognizant that we're taking care of those immediate needs, but also not sort of leaving behind the the children who seem to be doing quote unquote o okay, that that they they still need. um to have have that that presence. Uh a just typical things like story time, beep beep beep before bed.

For older ones, if there's driver's training, like they can always use more time with with a parent met next to them at the wheel and and those those present a lot of good opportunities for those those conversations to to occur in a in kind of a natural, relaxed way. And and uh kids, no matter what their age, always like ice cream too. So that that's that that that that's an easy one.

Lisa:
I can't help but think of in the Bible it says in these verses in Deuteronomy. I I know you uh have heard them about uh talking with our children and Uh in that case talking about uh our our who God is even and just life issues and things of when we walk along when we sit down, when we lay down. And that's in the Bible, but nowadays we can add in things when we're in the car. Yeah You know, having those convers when we go for ice cream, you know, doing those kinds of things. So I love that that natural connection with all that.

Robert:
And well one of our daughters had had a art class that she uh took for a a a year when when she was a a sophomore. And it It's kind of uh an annoying because it was about forty-five minutes or an hour drive away. But it was just a lot of time to be in the car together and and really just talk about how her day was How is she doing? Um share stories about w what what what what I've been doing and how things were were at work and really um help help grow grow that relationship because we were like forced to to be together during that time.

Jessica:
I think it takes also I think parenting takes bravery because and it takes self-sacrifice. And I think Someone asked me the other day, like, oh, what show are you watching? And I'm like, I don't think I've watched television in ten years.

Like It's it's being willing to sacrifice like my desires to ensure that I'm spending time with them. And it doesn't youth reminded me like I have always wanted it to be this like um what Well, I think I took a personality test once and it said that I was like the defender of holidays and special occasions. And so I want everything to be a party and a celebration and Euphis Rulisa kind of reminded me that It doesn't have to be a big thing spending time with your kids.

It just means like I've watched you just yesterday. One of our kids likes to play video games. And you literally just sat down next to them for 20 minutes and watched them play video games.

And that like signaled to them, oh, you're valuable, you're important, and the things you like are important to me. And it It wasn't I didn't have to buy anything, didn't have to go anywhere. It was just presence in and presence.

Lisa:
Right. S I've learned that even as an adult I just like presence, just being near my people because those moments are rarer when they all go off and start doing their own things and all. So I love that just entering in where they are and just another practical thing because you have so many different backgrounds going on, different needs, and we don't always know even.

So I do want to step into how um Uh and I cannot help but think of foster care, which you did, and then you recently were asked to adopt. So the two who you did fostered years ago. And I think of the the words in I think it's in Psalm Psalms.

I always have to write this down of how uh God is a father to the fatherless and he sets the lonely in families. I'm just like, wow, no matter what age that can be. uh you know a child, it could be a senior citizen who doesn't have family he he can put the lonely with community and uh you know connection Um but that has increased your family to six.

Uh children, so eight of you now Um that affects maybe a car size, or do you just take two vehicles every now?

Jessica:
We don't have a vehicle big enough for all of us. We haven't checked that out. Who gets shotgun in the car? That's also a thing.

Lisa:
That's definitely a thing. Uh how have you uh that's a lot of extra bandwidth and energy. Robert talked about the energy and relationships You're still sorting some of that out, but can you talk a little bit about that? Sure.

Jessica:
So um we mentioned earlier in our conversation that we had spent some time fostering and um all of those resulted in none of the children staying with us permanently.

Robert:
So uh w when um the the these two girls left our our our care when when they were younger, um I I s still remember like standing there in in front of the the house And wa waving goodbye to them, feeling sad. And then Jesse tripped over the curb at the end fell down.

Jessica:
You know how like that fight or flight sort of like when things are very, very stressful. So I was trying to keep it together, buckled them in the car, they're driving off. I turned around.

I was just so overwhelmed that I didn't step up the curb. And I fell flat on my face in our driveway. Like talk about adding insult what is it, insult to injury?

I mean that is that's our memory of saying goodbye. Uh Did you trip over the curb then too? Serious!

I slipped out of dog mode in the kitchen on the first day. Oh golly. I wish you like it's just like that that uh you know that stress and that newness like can really just make things happily nothing was broken, but they just Everyone looked at me like Why is Mom on the floor?

Why is Mama the floor?

Lisa:
Mom's the wife who tries to keep us together. But you know what? It adds some humor in the moment too. Because

Jessica:
fun i think that that that added some relief to the transition we're a we're a loud silly fun family and so it was just like I laughed it off and we got up and we ate our tacos. Um we ate our tacos So uh no, so one of the placements that we had did not, we said like we said, we said goodbye. And then this year on New Year's Day Get a phone call from the state we live in saying we have two two girls who you know and who need a permanent adoptive family. And talk about curveball.

Lisa:
And on New Year's Day.

Jessica:
Yeah.

Lisa:
Like I there are resolutions, but that's like, whoa, we're taking in two more children.

Jessica:
We're like preparing to like graduate a child, send one off, or start we also starting to turn about how we're in this groove. Um, and so we told the state that we needed to, you know, think about it, pray about it, talk to the family. I think our our children were instantly like our oldest was like, how do you say no to that?

And our our second was like, I don't believe in coincidences. And I just was thinking about them the other day and praying for them. And we were like Okay.

And then when we told our our son, who's nine, and explained, he's like, well, yeah, I'll bring him in

Lisa:
So um Okay, I just have to say with that right there, just to jump in, how did you, you know, I it's your fault for bringing up children who are So flying the ball in. How amazing that you have created that kind of thinking and space and heart in your family. And because there could also be bitterness, like, you know, there's so much going on.

Jessica:
That was technically a genuine fear because if I was a sixteen year old and you wanted to bring in two preteens into my family, I would have had bitterness. Like if I was really looking at my heart.

Robert:
Our our son did say he was going to go into school and tell his friends he had Oh, yeah.

Lisa:
Yeah. How amazing though that God had begun like preparing each of their hearts before that call ever came, so in the case of foster care, no child has made any decision that has created their own mess. It's been the choices of others that have created mess for them.

So that uh you know, that is something that I wouldn't have thought of, just even that birth order part of things and the mess that is from their perspective. So And I uh so you all are kind of still in that journey, but I want to uh hear a little more about just humor. in your life.

Jessica:
Um are you just like you wanna you wanna know all the stories, all the teeth, all the m that needs to be another I will tell you that our teenagers tell us the word mask. Yeah, is the word for like uh in like a gen alpha slang is like gossip and tea and like if someone's messy and so I got lots of mess for you. Our daughter with um Down syndrome. You will not believe the antics, the phone calls I get. From the school.

Robert:
I'm just surprised she's not kicked out yet.

Jessica:
I know, see.

Robert:
Uh around Thanksgiving time, a project write down a thousand things that they're thankful for.

Jessica:
And if you turn it in, you get to have lunch with the headmaster.

Robert:
Oh now it's an optional assignment. So he he brings home his uh large uh s pad of paper with to write down all thousand things. He writes he thinks for mom and dad and family and uh

Jessica:
I think number four or five.

Robert:
Five was I'm thankful this assignment is optional. And it stops.

Lisa:
Ha ha ha! You know, if he keeps going, he has two more things he can put on there this year with two more sisters. He could just include that's like half the assignment right there.

Jessica:
Oh, but like we just or our daughter is a hoot. Uh she loves to lock us out of the house So is a constant uh uh mess that we go through where she just locks the door

Lisa:
You know, way And then she's alone inside then? Yeah. Well with the labradoodle. She just wants to be in charge. She's like, everyone leave.

Jessica:
She's like this is my empty house.

Robert:
too while we're out there.

Jessica:
I think you said the other day, like, I never believed home alone. I didn't think that that that movie was plausible.

Robert:
But now I'm starting to think that that's gonna happen soon.

Jessica:
We haven't left anyone anywhere, but we might.

Lisa:
I love just hearing you chat just like this and the humor. And uh you know, we could talk for ages on all this, but I do want to touch on you've talked about there's a recurring thread of just um your relationship with God, faith, trusting God in this process, running away from God when you're like, no, I don't want to do what you put on our heart. But can you just talk a little bit about that, you know? Just why that has been an anchor for you or why it hasn't been. Just can you touch on some of that?

Jessica:
Sure.

Robert:
Yeah, uh even though we've been inconsistent, God has been consistent. And at every point uh along the journey where there's been needs, whether it's like financial or material or or spiritual or or whatever God has always shown up and provided what we needed. Not always what we wanted, but but but everything that we needed along the way.

And we're we're just very thankful for that. And just uh a as we our family starts to transition with uh children finally leaving and and starting starting the beginning to start their own lives. uh our role as parents is going to to change uh along with that, but uh we look forward to just continuing to trust that um God's got it.

Yeah. And look to where he wants us to to plug in and and and be in in the that that role that that that he wants for us. I'm sure we'll continue to to miss things.

And and make mistakes and and get distracted al along the way, but but God has been consistent.

Jessica:
Yeah. And like for me, like I grew up in this um kind of uh theology that's like Jesus is just like uh salvation in Jesus is your ticket to heaven Like there was not a lot of conversation about like sanctification and growing and and what life looks like. here, now, it was it was more just like, oh, that's that's for heaven.

And so um as I've grown in my love for Jesus and my love for the word and maturity. I've I've learned that like life is to like live live now for Christ and to to to die to ourselves and like give our life and service to other people. And so um All of these like messy things that have happened in my life have really just been used to refine me.

I think again in James it says like consider it joy when you face trials of many kind because it's there to uh perfect your faith and to give you perseverance and to grow you. Um, and so I've really that's kind of been a verse that I've just like really leaned into because I've had a lot of trial and trauma and and grief in my life. And so um It's just been, I mean, like like Robert said, like we have not been perfect.

We have not done things um Wisely. Wisely. We've made a lot.

We've like you just said, like some messes we've created for ourselves. And so it's just really been about

Robert:
um being able to uh just kind of lean into lean into Christ and w one thing I um I I and the uh the the pastor's sermon that this past Sunday um really

Jessica:
Uh oh yeah.

Robert:
Isa, a lot of times there's a temptation to try to get other people to be more like you. And we should really be pointing people to Jesus so that we become more like him and the people around us. We encourage them to be more more like Jesus and and not set ourselves as this standard or or or or try to try to convince people to to live like we do.

Jessica:
And I think like at the beginning of like our my parenting, I wanted to make my children like me and what what I preferred. Like I I turned my preferences into a moral issue and like wanted them to do that. And like And it's like, no, no, no, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be like Christ. And so again, just kind of refining those, those uh

Robert:
So it's really clarifying like w what is a clear clear biblical uh command versus what are just our our preferences.

Lisa:
I really like that. Yeah, we have sorry.

Jessica:
No, no, you go ahead. We have a saying like at the dinner table, like it's like these are true truths. And then these are our family preferences.

And we really try to distinguish between the two. Um, so that our our because someday our children may go out and those might not be their preferences. Um, and so they don't have to feel guilty in changing those preferences.

Lisa:
I feel like that's huge because that's a very intentional pouring into their life of what is God's truth and what our your you know, what our family what you've chosen how as parents and and all and that gives them freedom to know, okay, well this is you know, and to I I that is so wise about the um, you know, distinguishing between that. I do have a a question, um Dates kind of self-care people talk about. Do you ever get to pull out Freshen, who was awesome. He just likes self care.

Jessica:
Like whoa. You may not have time for that. We have a standing date uh during the school year Robert and I have lunch every Friday and we go and we eat at places our children for refuse to eat at.

So I will catch him in the garage in the car just sitting there. I love the garage, that's awesome. Go look in the bedroom, knock on the bathroom.

He's just sitting in the car and I just open the door. I'm like But you know, he that's self-care. I think that's awesome.

Right and I I would s I would love to say that I'm great at self-care and I'm not. This is our family mascot. It's a smiley dumpster fire.

Didn't Robert find that? He found this. And the irony of it, I wish I still had it.

It was in a crumpled up box And like we were just laughing hysterically because how ironic that the dumpster fire. And then this like beat up box in the bottom of a Clearance bed and like Robert said someone to buy tokens or anything and he brought it home and we're like, this is us like just finding joy In the dumpster fire of life and just be able to laugh about it and smile about it and just not dwell in the mess, but just find the joy in it and and and move on. I think that's kind of just been I don't know if it's just our personalities though, being able to be flexible and easygoing.

Um

Lisa:
But that's also a choice. I I just think you are and other people in life that you are an extraordinary people. Which is extraordinary because of some of your choices.

The choice is to be flexible. The choice to roll with it when whatever happens, y um, whether it's someone coming into your life from trauma in their background, from overseas or special needs or fostering and then uh just finding the humor in it and I'm sure a lot of the laughter. And you know, if your neighbors can hear the noise, I'm sure they love the laughter because only God can bring all these threads of all the different backgrounds.

among your children and you guys into some a place where there can be some joy. And I also I couldn't help but think when you were talking Robert at one point about uh missing things. We'll miss things and we have missed things.

And I know with Rick and I we got to a point we would pray for God to fill in the gaps. Because we do miss things as parents, even the most the best intentions and the most intentional choices. we're not always going to show up intentionally or uh whatever the case may be.

So I I'm thankful that we can ask God to fill in those gaps along the way.

Jessica:
But I had a friend recently, she was actually the maid of honor my wedding, she texted me the other day and she said, Your family is like a little piece of heaven on earth, like it looks like heaven. We have six kids representing four different nationalities and um multiple abilities and multiple uh backgrounds and um I thought that that was a really, really sweet way sweet way to put it. And just I think that having more of a Our our pastor likes to say a lot of times like eyes up, not out, meaning like having more of your if if your focus is more on e the eternal things versus like the worldly things, um it's it makes it just a little easier to have a a perspective that you can, you know, get like for me, like to deal with, to deal with it, to deal with the mess.

when I find that the t the messes that happen in my life that I wallow in or don't respond correctly to is because my attitude is inward in those. Like, how is this ruining my life? How is this making me uncomfortable?

How is this um affecting me instead of having and then when I shift my perspective to say to think of others focused and uh eternally focused it's just easier for me to to shift and to have to have that joy and to to do the next right thing. Cause sometimes when I well in how this is affecting me, the choices I make are more about how is this gonna affect my comfort. So And I may choose to do the wrong thing because it's comfortable versus um just doing doing the hard thing that's it's actually kind of what what one should th that's the the I don't want to Like the the thing that would be better.

I think we talk a lot about in our family. There are things that are what are you you could you do it better than me. This is your say the good, better, but oh well uh

Robert:
Don't accept what what is good in exchange for for what is better. So so so so don't let the uh the the good or or the better even crop crowd up for like what what what is best in your life

Lisa:
Wow. And you have opened up your hearts and lives and home and family for what we hope and pray will be the best for them. Definitely better. And giving them opportunities.

Robert:
I I I I really appreciate what uh J Jesse's friend friend said about the the uh the the family like uh being a a small glimpse of like what what heaven heaven's going to be like and rem remember like singing that that song and Sunday school, uh Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world, red, yellow, brown, black, and white. And like if Jesus loves th those children th then then so should we.

Lisa:
Wow. That is really powerful. I grew up hearing that song too and you guys have a lot of those those uh different ethnicities represented under your roof there.

So I just so appreciate you joining us on some of this. And I know there are other things along the way. I know even we kind of touched earlier on when you adopted you know, your one daughter with special needs, that affects maybe that empty nest stage.

But then Jessica, what you're talking about, you know Um I you know, when we look at our needs and that involves some sacrifice later, sometimes with special needs, but just your willingness to step into that. Some I i just in your daily life and thank you for just kinda talking about the mess and some of the crazy I don't even know how you cook for all the people and all all the people I mean do you all record? Three pounds of ground beef Oh three bad You know, uh people talk about cost of groceries every now and then, but you know, I can't even imagine.

So

Jessica:
But you were when you said self-care, I was like, Well I no longer get my eyebrows done because I have to buy ground beef

Lisa:
So I just appreciate you all for joining us and uh friend, I really hope that you've been able to be encouraged today by just seeing people who have mess but have opened up their lives and hearts and homes.

Lisa:
And I hope you're leaving encouraged today and I hope you join me next time on Thrive in the Mess.