Feeling Broken at the Holidays? Encouragement & Peace from Lisa’s friend Dr. Kelly

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I'm really glad you're here. We are kicking off some holiday episodes with our little fire and some candy canes and I have an amazing guest with me. It is her second time on Thrive in the Mess and it is my friend Dr. Kelly.

Kelly is a psychologist and we're jumping in talking about when we feel broken at Christmas. And Kelly, welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I have to to say I am wearing the earrings you gave me that you made from porcupine quills and you gave them to me a year ago and You are part Native American and you do beadwork with other Native Americans and I love these earrings.

So they are Christmas earrings with little bit of red and white and I don't have a whole lot of red but I am here with bells on and super excited. I do have a candy cane for you but I'll have to mail it to you Please do So um if you were here I'd have you take it out of the little uh Merry Christmas uh jug I have here. so uh nice and red and festive but thank you for being on the first holiday episode and i am so thankful I could think of no one else but you to reach out to.

There is a lot of broken where we feel broken at Christmas and we feel broken at Thanksgiving and We feel a little broken at holiday get-togethers that involve uh family and friends and Um uh it it's it's hard to navigate that. Everything seems so perfectly done. Even the commercials for buying something or the movies we see or whatever it is, the food, the decorations, the gifts, the relationships, everything's it seems perfect.

Now sometimes there might be a little mess that they have in a movie and they tackle it with humor and there can be some resolution in ninety minutes. We can't always have that resolution in ninety minutes. There's some broken that we may have to Make some other decisions.

But Kelly, that's why I have you here. I'm just so thankful. I I would love to hear some of your thoughts on just when we feel broken at the holidays and how do we tackle this

Dr. Kelly:
Well That's a big question. Yeah, well you said like sometimes in the movies they they can fix it in like ninety minutes, that's part of their plot. But I I immediately thought ninety days or ninety years, there are people that have never been able to really have that intimacy And that closeness and that perfect home, if you will, that everybody's dreams of and we're kind of promised by these movies, like the Hallmark movies.

And it's a it's a difficult thing. So we are like we're in November right now and Thanksgiving's coming up. And that I'm very thankful.

I love Thanksgiving. I really do. But when it comes to family gatherings um they can be difficult.

And for some that are listening to this, whether by audio or another platform that you're using, they may have an empty chair and somebody was there last year but they're not there this year. And so empty chairs, I know that I've ha experienced that within my home. We've had a lot of loss over the decades.

And if you can think back to that first holiday without them. So that's the first thing that I would like to address is the the missing, you know, the the empty chair. It's it's interesting because in psychology there was a theorist and he had a technique called the empty chair.

And people would talk to the empty chair as if somebody were there And uh usually they did that when you couldn't say it to the person. So the empty chair, somebody may not be there. And and so if you actually are an individual that's listening to this or viewing this and it's your first holiday without them.

uh depending upon the degree of intimacy within a relationship, how close you were to them. Uh so I will I'll say first of all, let's assume that that person was one of your balcony people. They were in your like balcony cheering you on.

They were perhaps the person that was the only person to get you. I've had clients tell me, even this week, somebody told me that they felt known and seen by their grandmother. And their grandmother will not be there this year.

And so it's interesting also for me, Lisa, because my gr my mother was born on Thanksgiving. Really? Wow.

And she was born on her mom's birthday. So my grandma and my mom shared the same birthday. So when the fourth Sometimes that this year it's twenty-seventh, you know, it's on the twenty-seventh, but many years they would celebrate Thanksgiving and their birthdays together.

So a potato whammy. Sued pie and cake. Yeah, exactly.

Right. Oh yeah. Pie and cake.

Lisa:
Like we don't have enough calories on that to begin with.

Dr. Kelly:
Don't get me going. I I do love that about Thanksgiving, the gathering around in my family, they were really great cooks. But the the first chair that was empty was when my grandmother was gone.

Uh-huh. And then my mother. So that empty chair is really hard to look at.

So I would encourage some of you, oh all of you, if it's very, very difficult What do you what do you do? You're s you have to move through it. You have to feel to heal.

And I I say as difficult it as it is you have to feel it because we feel to heal. And it's another way to acknowledge them.

Lisa:
Yeah, and you know, Cal, I remember very well the first year my mom passed away in May and she made the holidays amazing. Mom was just one of a kind with that. And I was dreading.

I found myself dreading the holidays coming. And I'm like, but I love the holidays, you know. And um so I ended up um making an intentional choice to lean in and do some things, some of the same traditions.

And of course we had some of our own family traditions with my immediate family with my husband and children, but I also decided to do some things differently, like celebrating my dad's birthday and my aunt's birthday because She was my mom's sister. So we did something totally different to celebrate them for their birthday. And we've actually done that the same way for the past nine years now.

So, um, taking them out to a special meal and instead of another gift because it was just something I loved that idea and I was excited about something new and an intentional choice when things were hurting and because of that empty chair. But that was a choice that I had to make.

Dr. Kelly:
You chose to start a new tradition. And And it doesn't throw out the old at all. Not saying that your mom was old.

I love your mom. But um so you did that. Was your first holiday without your mom Easter?

Lisa:
Uh no, the first holiday uh actually we had Mother's Day, she died a week later and um I I kinda look at uh the first one without her was my parents anniversary and father's day. But the real meaningful ones were uh were Thanksgiving and Christmas and just lots of holiday things and the way she transformed the house and just all the all the different things. So I like what you're saying of making some choices moving forward.

And I do think there are special ways to celebrate our person. And uh and and still be able to say, you know what, it's okay because part of me almost felt like I was because my mom had so much joy and we shared so much laughter together, as you know. And part of me felt like I was almost betraying my mom because of stepping into such a joyful season.

And that was something I had to kind of wrestle through and just say, Lisa I have to be here for the living also for my children and others in my family. And so that was a choice about living and I knew my mom would be about that. So many of our loved ones I can't speak for them, but I do feel like they would want us to go on and celebrate life and enjoy life.

with our loved ones, with our friends, with our family, and step out into a new season and not feel guilty. I think sometimes we can just choose to step into a new season and not have to feel like we need to drag our feet or feel badly that we're stepping out and being joyful, enjoying the lights, enjoying the food, enjoying the ambience creating uh fun and creating celebration because that's what the holidays are. Thanksgiving is being Thankful it's in the name and my goodness if when I don't take time to be grateful, I think I for me, I end up being more self focused and choosing to be thankful is important for me to think outside myself and to say, Okay, God, you know what?

You really have shown up this way this year and um and seeing God sightings in our days and just other holiday get togethers. I think that year we also chose to do some different things. um with our family, with some friends, because I was like, what am I gonna do?

Sit at home and curl up in a ball. And or am I going to choose to intentionally intentionally create some spaces and time to celebrate? And then Christmas, my goodness, what joy.

You know, I we literally have hope. That came to earth, the birth of Jesus and the joy that He offers and hope that He offers to a broken world. And when we feel broken at the holidays.

But sometimes we hear those Christmas carols, Joy to the World, and we're like, well, I'm not feeling that joy right now. So that was a choice the year my mom died and uh stepping into a season that she had created so much and to choose not to feel badly stepping into celebrating.

Dr. Kelly:
Because that's false guilt. And there's a couple Uh one of my mentors has told me, and I think you know him pretty well, and he said that um you actually There's guilt and there's shame. And guilt says I made a mistake.

And shame says I am the mistake. So when you go to false guilt and look at it through that, you say, you know what, were you guilty? Were you guilty?

I don't think so. So we have to look at our guilt and say, okay, did I make a mistake Did I can I release that? Have I asked forgiveness for that?

In this case it would be false guilt to have joy and celebrate the the relatives of your you know, your grandchildren, your your children, their grandchildren, your mom's grandchildren. And so that's one lens to look at it. The other thing that you had just described Earlier you had said about like like really enjoying the people, the living people.

And uh one of the things that I've said for years, and it And I'm going to say it again here, it's live for the living. Because so often when we get so like in our grief and we're holding it as if it's a cloak of comfort It's not. We can move through the grief, we can identify it, acknowledge the individual, acknowledge the loss, and live for the living.

Otherwise, uh, through losses, we miss the people that are in front of us and we don't see them. Wow. Right.

So Oh, that's so good, Kel. And you had talked about how you had went through that And you talked about uh like, okay, I'll find some friends and we'll do things differently. I had heard uh somebody I can't even remember who it is at this point, but it wasn't in a book.

They were just saying it in uh like a I was scrolling. So I had I had seen this video and the video had said Mess. The acronym for MESS.

If you don't if you want to get out of your mess, you need to move. This person was speaking my language. You need to move, you need to eat Sleep, silence, that's meditation, and socialize So what you had done yeah I know that's MESS, the acronym for MESS.

I added another S, it's SING. So if you're going to move through the holidays and we are going to move through the holidays because they are going to come and they are going to go And you need to be at the table. You need to be present with them.

But socialize. Yes, be present. I am positively known in my family.

as being there but not being fully there from my past. In my past, I would come home to family reunions And family gatherings. And do you know I would be there, but I wasn't all there.

It was for me, it wasn't just the loss of people. It was just that it was a family reunion to me and they weren't always fun. So Kelly I I

Lisa:
You can answer this however you want, but when you say that, I know your family has walked through some hard times and it's different for everyone in life. Kelly, you've really walked through some different things in life that have been very challenging and difficult. And yet you have walked through and Done the hard work, as you often will say. Um, can you just give us a little rundown of some when you say life is, you know, some of those hard family reunions All of you kind of went through some of those, is that right?

Dr. Kelly:
And because it's it's generational trauma. We know about historical trauma within our um native communities. We talk about historical trauma and then there's generational trauma.

And so what happens is uh if people aren't really taught or they don't know what to do with it. They just keep repeating it and we keep duplicating it. So I had duplicated this this beautiful gift I had observed in my mother Which I'm being sarcastic, but in uh lighthearted type of a way.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Dr. Kelly:
I was angry. And I had talked about that on another episode. It was episode two of Thrive in the Master, I believe.

Remember. So for my mother, uh, it was just like she came into our family, or I w actually came in her family and I was born a twin. And I'm very grateful the fact that I am a fraternal twin and uh but this week, in fact on Wednesday of this week, in two days it will have been forty-three days since my twin brother passed.

And that was right before Thanksgiving, which was right before my mother's birthday.

Lisa:
Wait, forty three years?

Dr. Kelly:
Forty three years ago. Oh my goodness.

Lisa:
Can I say something, Kyle? I know one of the things that I really respect about you is that even though you have walked through some significant through some significant loss, you have tried to honor some things in the moment. Like, I love that you have something.

It's the place you go get your Christmas tree. I don't know if you've always done that. I know you did last year, but it's called Tommy's Acre.

Your twins after your after your twin, isn't it? And I just Love that the honoring. Can you just kind of talk about how you honor him in that way and why you chose to name it Tommy Zaker?

Dr. Kelly:
Because when we were little and uh I was a little kid, I'm not much taller now, believe me. Uh we went to a phase Um I live in Northeast Michigan and we were raised actually in Northeast Michigan. I live in the very same zip code.

I live like less than a mile from the house where I had a lot of trauma, but I also had beautiful memories. We can't throw those out. And I just I just wanted to mention that any if if anybody were to uh like have known me let's say fifteen, twenty years ago, I was still I hadn't really done a lot of healing at that point.

Because we heal in increments. I still was like withholding and and it's been over the last fifteen years and specifically the last ten and praise God for the last five when I moved back here and live in the four nine well, I won't give the zip code, but four nine. And and so here I am and it's November nineteenth This Wednesday at Tommy's Acre, when we were little kids, we went to a place called Hayden's Acre Hayden's Acres, and it was this beautiful place, and it was on the river, and we were friends with the owners, and she was so nice to us, misses Hayden.

She had give us bread bags for our our snow boots and we'd go in there and have hot chocolate. So Hayden's Acres was a very big memory for all of my siblings. Especial memories, wow.

So when Tommy passed away when we were sixteen and he was hit on the very same road that Hayden's Acres is on and I still drive by that. In fact later today I'm gonna drive right past it. Guess what I'm doing this year?

I am putting a cross up on Tommy's acre Tommy did not get to grow into being acres. So an acre is like a year to me. So he had sixteen acres, but that's not Not a lot.

Lisa:
You're still honoring him.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. Yeah. We so on Tommy's acre I bought that property.

It's never been built upon. The first thing that's going up on that is a cross and that's going up on November nineteenth. Uh this year on Tommy's Acre, which is a place that I'm going to uh just make memories because the motto for Tommy Zaker is make memories, not money.

Because you can always make more money. Maybe not a lot. But you can certainly make more money than memories, and certainly not.

I'll never have more memories with Tommy. So that's going up.

Lisa:
But in a way you are because of getting your tree from there and putting a cross up there. Kelly, why are you putting up a cross? Because after all the junk you've been through in life all the hard stuff, why in the world would you say, I believe in God?

Dr. Kelly:
Well that yeah, you know, um That's a great question because it's interesting that uh two things come to my mind. First of all, that God's plan was not for the trials and the trauma. His perfect plan.

Okay? So God's perfect plan is not for us to have trials and trauma. His perfect plan involved him coming and descending on this earth and being that greatest gift so that I can have hope.

But better yet, I don't grieve as those without hope. And I've never been angry at God. I know a lot of people that do and I even have when I do intensive trauma therapy with people I have a pair of everlast boxing gloves and I have 'em put 'em on.

I'm saying you gotta go for a walk and you gotta duke it out with God

Lisa:
I was wondering do you have them duke it out with you? I'm like yes.

Dr. Kelly:
Oh no, they put them on and I say go for a walk because or if you if you don't want to walk around with ever and they do, I do kind of make them do that But I'm like, go go for a walk and you have that And God can handle that.

Lisa:
He can handle when we're upset. He can handle when We're devastated and crying and angry and he's big enough to handle all that.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah, and he's not surprised and he's omniscient. Right. He knows our thoughts.

So we just For those that can't go for a walk, I say just just talk it out in the shower, cry. But here's the thing about crying. When people have a trauma, right?

Or there is something like We hear this, like we've heard this in videos that we've observed on TV with mass shootings. There are horrific things that have happened in our world. And what do people cry out?

Oh my God.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Dr. Kelly:
They pray.

Lisa:
Crying out to him.

Dr. Kelly:
They are crying out. Oh, they're like, they're acknowledging God. in a trial and in a traumatic period of time.

And that's when people pray. And why do I why did I not for Tommy? Because Tommy knew him Tommy knew Jesus personally.

He accepted him into his heart. He acknowledged that he acknowledged we he confessed with his lips. That Jesus was Lord.

And my I was with Tommy just probably five minutes before he went to heaven. Before he was hit by that car.

Lisa:
Goodness, wow.

Dr. Kelly:
Truly. And And you know what we did together? We sang.

So when I said earlier Just five minutes before? Five minutes before. Because we were separated.

That's the other thing. Some people are going through hollow holidays now. This is their first Thanksgiving without their spouse who may have left them or like intentionally they're still living So we have people that have traumas because of something that they are experiencing, not a separation from death.

Lisa:
It's a different kind of broken, right.

Dr. Kelly:
It's a different kind of broken. Right. And so That separation was when I was 14 years old and came home and there were six children in the house.

Three were gone. I came home to an my stepfather crying in the chair where my mom used to read her Bible and she left and took Tommy. She took Becky and she took Melinda I don't know.

We still to this day do not know how things were chosen. But the point is, is that that I was not living with Tommy that year because he was with my mom and I ended up I was at the time I was living with an aunt my aunt and uncle, who still to this day won't like accept the fact that, you know, you really helped save my life. You really you provided a safe place for me.

Wow. And we had a beautiful dinner in the middle of the mess. In the middle of the money.

That you had no choice Right. Brokenness and mess. And then we were singing.

So Tommy and I were then singing. And we had dinner there and it was getting dark and he had to he had to walk not even that bar. But we sang together.

He told me about a girl he was interested in named Missy. Wow. And we sang songs that our Sunday school songs Wellie, what a gift.

Lisa:
Yeah. I I like right before he stepped into eternity and oh my goodness, after the grief you had experienced, the loss of uh you know, not even being with your twin and what a gift right before that. And and I and then I love again Tommy Zacre and just I you choosing uh that's one of the choices of choosing to celebrate the person, choosing to live life in the now, you could be devastated because uh it like you said, November it was your mom's birthday on Thanksgiving, fell on Thanksgiving a lot of times, and then you had the loss of Tommy, which is the day this is being released. And I had no idea the timing, you know, that this would even come out and all.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. That does. And even if this pr people are listening to this and it's twenty twenty-seven I want to tell you that God's timing is perfect.

And we can we can question him if we want, but and we can be angry at him, he can take it. But Why lose time? Why lose more time?

We live for the living. And I have to tell you that I do want to talk a little bit about trauma. from those people that in the brokenness it's traumatic.

So it's traumatic. I had all this we all had we all lost Tommy. But what?

What I didn't know was that Mike one of my cousins his birthday was on November nineteenth I never knew that till like five five years ago.

Lisa:
Oh wow.

Dr. Kelly:
So I missed my cousin's birthday. 'Cause we're you know, he was like seventeen. or eighteen, I'm sixteen.

We're not exactly sending birthday cards when we're teenagers, right? Right. It's like hey, happy birthday right?

We're there for the party. And then so this Wednesday I am taking him. He's in town, and I'm gonna take him out to lunch.

And we're celebrating him. But when November hits So we talked about generational trauma and how that it can duplicate it, but we can also stop that because scripture even talks a lot about how you can ha stop generational sin. And we can we can't do that on our own.

And the only difference that I make is because of Jesus. And I want to tell you, because when I told you the gift that I inherited from my mom, from her personality, was anger I was an angry person, and hurt turns to anger, and anger turns to bitterness, and bitterness turns to wrath, and wrath turns to malice. and malice turns to murder.

Not that you're gonna kill somebody, but even the thought of taking your own life, that's murder. You are you're not you're dying at your own hand, but that is a choice. So for anybody that When it comes to trauma, please know this.

You have to acknowledge your hurt. You have to say, this hurt me You can be angry, and that's okay. It is not a sin to be angry.

It can be, if that's where we want to stay, and we act out in malice with malicious words. But we have an opportunity to address our tram trauma. We have an opportunity to move through our trauma differently.

So there is a gen not just generational, but a biological age of trauma, and there's something about November. And I have to tell you, it's similar to how I usually felt the first part of May during Mother's Day after the loss of a mom my mom.

Lisa:
Right.

Dr. Kelly:
It You don't even have to tell me it's November. If I was blind and didn't have a calendar or any type of technology, my body remembers. Really it's the smell in the air and my body recalls that and the depression sits in. And I used to go I used to lose Novembers. I can't tell you how many Novembers. I probably lost Over maybe two years of November's.

Lisa:
Wow. How do you have two years of my life if I lose November Wow. How do how do you not lose November if you're someone who is like, okay, this time of the year, that's it for me, or how do you have just a simple win with that of not letting that affect you? How do you stop that? Because we do feel it in our body and our spirit and uh you know, our emotions.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah, I'm not telling people not to feel it. I'm not telling people that, you know, get on with it. No, because as we know with grief, we don't people say, well Do you have any hope for me?

Like how how can I get through this? It's individual. Depending upon the relationship, depending upon your own personality, everything.

There are some people that refuse to be comforted But for me, uh I love the name of God, the m uh Prince of Peace, I love that one. But mighty counselor. Nobody else could reach me.

I could I could have went to counselor after counselor, but nobody could reach me.

Lisa:
And you're a counselor for people. Yeah. And I love how you point people to the mighty counselor, you know, the one who loves us and made us. And yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
If if the truth is, is this that if if we could sell peace, like you know, there's thing uh if peace came in a medicine bottle and some people think it does, it doesn't. But if it did and I could say, hey, I'm gonna prescribe this peace for you It would be flying off the shelves like red in a snowstorm in northeast Michigan.

Lisa:
Billionaire billions of times over 'cause everyone wants it, right.

Dr. Kelly:
Even with that Or the the medicines that say take as needed for anxiety. All you have to do is just be patient with yourself because you Grieve differently. It will get better.

Every day for a year I cried. I woke I woke up in the morning crying and I went to bed crying for one year. And I I don't know, for me it was like a And after one year I remembered because I wasn't a crier.

I'm like I use humor as my defense mechanism. You know, and we have different defense mechanism.

Lisa:
And you are funny.

Dr. Kelly:
Well thank you. Thanks for noticeing me. But so When it comes to trauma, people have fight, flight, freeze, and they added fawn.

So What's the last one? Fawn. F-A-W-N like a deer.

Okay. Like a deer, yeah. Right, right, right.

So you have to fight and some people just when they it they experience it and they get triggered, they just fight.

Lisa:
The gloves that you talk about in a way.

Dr. Kelly:
The gloves and they can fight with their words, they could fight they might break something. Then there's flight. Some people just peace out, girls go, I'm outta here. They've they're runners

Lisa:
Is flight maybe also like if someone just smiles and says, Okay, I'll just push through the holidays and recover in January. Is that a version of flight?

Lisa:
If you just try to slap a smile?

Dr. Kelly:
That's there's re we have three different things to do with emotions. Great question, by the way Three things to do when we are experiencing intense emotions. There's repress, that's denial.

It's just like so if this is the emotion, I'll say my coffee cup, right? Then and I feel it, it's I start to feel it and it's bub well. Well, oh sorry, hold on.

And then I say, nope, I'm not gonna feel that.

Lisa:
I Right.

Dr. Kelly:
That's suppression. You s you feel it and you push it down. That increases anxiety and agitation.

So you just that's suppressing Hmm. Repress is just absolute denial. I'm actually holding my coffee cup.

You can't see it right now, but I promise I am And then there's express. So that's when, not like espresso, but you express your emotion. And if you can't do that safely to the person that you feel triggered by, then you had to at least acknowledge it to yourself.

So repress, denial That's not fair to yourself. To to deny your own emotions that were probably denied for year after year, whether from an ex or even in childhood. Or other things in life, maybe it's a a job.

Some people are actually maybe they don't have the same job that they've had. Or forced to resign. And I do want it yeah, so the that is something that you have repress.

Suppress, express, you at least acknowledge this is painful. Now what do you do when you're so you asked about flight. Flight is more that's like when what I used to do.

I'd come home for family reunions. I'd drive sixteen hours from Virginia where I was at university. And then I'd come home and I would be not tired from the drive because I had no doze in Mountain Dew.

But and coffee. That's a healthy combination. My mom loved that.

She laughed and laughed But what would I do? I would take a nap. I was I was known to just go to the party And then I'd go find a bed to sleep in or I'd lean against a wall.

I wasn't fully present. Even though I was there. So flight for some people is just sleeping.

You just want to sleep

Lisa:
So there's lots of people. Leave the situation in some way and not being present.

Dr. Kelly:
Okay. Usually they talk about the flight as in I'm out. Right.

At least you're trying if you make it to the to the meal, and then you have to set a boundary. So see, boundaries are very important. Because you may, and you had talked about this earlier, Lisa, around the table, whether Christmas or you know any holiday, there's going to be people that believe differently And they're just going to keep talking about it.

And this, these are four words that I've told my clients in the past, and I'll tell you now. When you get in that struggle, like this is I'm holding a uh rope and you're like it's like they're pulling this way and or whatever. It's You can say you may be right.

You're not saying they are right, and you're not saying you're wrong So if somebody's trying to pull you into their belief and you know what, you're listening if you believe as I do.

Lisa:
Or just trying to beat you into

Dr. Kelly:
You you may be right.

Lisa:
Yank your chain, however people say right, right.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. And just say, you know what, you may be right. Or uh I prefer not to talk about this.

And then if they persist You don't have to respond. See, boundaries protect what we love, and many of these people that we have boundary problems with are people that we love. It's not for lack of love for some people.

It's lack of understanding. And people will believe differently. There I have friends that believe differently than me and I have family that believe differently than me and many m thankfully I have family that do believe similarly in that creates a closer relationship.

But you can still have a close relationship with people that believe differently.

Lisa:
Right, right. Oh yeah. And so jumping back to the uh the fight, flight and I forgot the third one. Freeze. Can you talk a little bit about freeze and fawn?

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. So freezing is just when a person just like they stop. Like they Freeze. Meaning they can't move.

Lisa:
They can't speak.

Dr. Kelly:
How do you walk through the holidays if that's your reaction? If y well You can move through the holidays. It's usually that point in time when you're at a when you're with people that don't make you feel safe.

Mm. So there are some people that will be in a room with somebody and they have an unresolved conflict or that person is just You know, uh they're n that individual that you don't feel safe with is the person that you have to be around. You you have to go and they're not the fun drunk uncle.

You know what I mean? Like have you they have that in movies, the drunkle they call 'em. It's not like that.

So when you for me, uh when I would get around some people, I was more of a flight, but for a f person who's in fight, then they would just like keep at it and then you just you're both exhausted. But freeze is when you just you're just sitting there because You're at the table and it's like something's happening here and you just freeze. You can't move.

It's not like you're broken.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Dr. Kelly:
Like you're just Excuse me, I'm gonna go get some pie while uh yeah, yeah. Cause when I talk about biological age of trauma, what I'm talking about is we can become that age So when I'm under stress, I can be a fourteen year old. Fourteen to sixteen.

Lisa:
Is that when trauma entered your life? Is that what that means sometimes biological age? That it's when it entered your life?

Dr. Kelly:
or if you've ever heard people sometimes they biological age of trauma is usually the most significant trauma in your childhood. Okay. So for me it was 14.

I survived a lot up to fourteen, trust me. Right. But Fourteen was the most traumatic.

I was separated from my siblings and specifically my twin, who was my first wombate. And we had never really been separated. We weren't like, you know, I mean we had sibling rivalry, but and so I can be under stress a 14 year old that is basically wow fun.

It's like I I just become like that. Uh I didn't know what to do. I but I didn't really freeze.

And some some people are private sufferers. So people didn't even know and I wasn't communicating about it. So I just stuffed it when I was fourteen.

Lisa:
Well, who do you talk to when you're fourteen too sometimes if

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah.

Lisa:
You know, especially when other family have made decisions that have hurt you very deeply too and affected you. Uh that last one about Fawn, Kelly, can you touch on that one?

Dr. Kelly:
That's new But it's really not new. It's been around, but they didn't know what to call it. It's people pleasing.

So you will have a dominant one of those. Speaking keeping in mind that what we're talking about is how people respond when they feel threatened. which it triggers a tra like a trauma, a memory.

Your body remembers it wasn't safe before and you just freeze Take flight or fawning is people pleasing. So I find myself actually trying to people please. I'm more of a fauner now.

because I'm not running and I'm not taking flight. I noticed even this month that I people please, I'm like, oh, let me try to do this and and I'll try to do that and I'll give more And so we're talking about Which can lead to financial issues if you're trying to be careful with that. Not just because of the financial thing, because it could also you're trying to overcompensate for something that can't be replaced.

So a lot of things relationships do that because you can't replace something that you have done. You have to m reconcile.

Lisa:
Right. I you know, Kelly, even with what you're saying of getting together with the cousin who your twin died on his birthday. Yeah.

But this year you're choosing to celebrate his birthday, that cousin's birthday. And I'm sure his day was really overshadowed by such a loss in the family and it gets you know, slips to the side. But in the middle of doing that, you can't make up for like however many birthdays over the years and even that really traumatic one for everyone.

But I love the choice you're making of celebrating him now, you know, years later and you know, going out with him and celebrating his life. So and but how do you get past the feeling of I have to do more, I have to make up for all of this, because we really can't. I that seems like it's a never winning uh never one battle of trying to make everything perfect from through all the years. Money.

Dr. Kelly:
You don't have enough money. There is not enough money. I was thrown so much money trying to make up for my siblings.

Bad childhood. You know, just like this this okay, you oh you didn't get to go to Disney. We'll go to Disney.

Okay, go to we're gonna go here. That I threw thousands of dollars every time every time I'm trying to make up no what I I wasn't a mom. I wasn't a mom.

I could I can't make up for it.

Lisa:
Right wasn't the her choices, your mom's choices or whoever's choices that were not in your control I we can't fix those.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. No, we can't. We can't be the father that left them. We can't be the husband to the you know, you can't You cannot possibly make up for it.

So what we do when we fun, we we will either give more compliments And or we'll just like fawn over the person, we will mm open up our pocketbook, we will end up spending more and it doesn't replace it. It's just there's no replacement for it. But And and then we keep in mind that for me, my cousin Randy, whose birthday is on November 19th, that he had a relationship with Tommy.

So he was grieving Tommy. Right. And so what I'm doing is a reframe.

It's when you put a different frame around something. And it put a reframe. It's reframing it.

Lisa:
Say that one more time.

Dr. Kelly:
You put a frame around it and Yeah, I'm reframing it. I'm taking the off that bad picture with the dark shadows around it and I'm putting a gold one. You can't see the picture behind me, but it has a dark frame around it.

But if I put uh lighter frame around it then it would pop the yellows more. But now we see the browns and the whole thing. You're looking at things differently.

So I'm going to reframe November nineteenth on that day and I'm not we live for the living. That's the The Day of Loss.

Lisa:
Wow. How can someone do that? What's that?

How can someone how can someone do that looking ahead at their dreading uh do they stay at home? Or do they choose to step into, okay, I'm gonna show up to Thanksgiving with family, friends, whatever, or that holiday get together? or that Christmas celebration, how can someone reframe that?

Do you have any tips on that to just give them a win with that?

Dr. Kelly:
Well Here's a win. You show up for yourself. And you go for yourself.

And you go for others as well. But you say. How many rooms are in that house?

And if somebody is trying to talk to you about something and you feel not cornered, but you know, I'm going. Pardon me, but I'm gonna go talk to Aunt Edna. Pardon me, I'm gonna go talk to Aunt Mary.

Uh Because if we stay well hydrated and use the restroom frequency. Um The holidays there's a lot of alcohol usually in some homes. Not your home.

And it's I just want to let you know that If you actually do not drink alcohol, if you can say, you know what, because if you think you're just gonna have one, usually it's not one and done. then you can remain in the right mind, the right frame of mind. So if it's worth it to you, but some people say, well I couldn't make it through a holiday without alcohol.

And then and this is really true, Lisa There are a lot of people that use that as an anesthetic. And it does not anesthetize. It will actually make it worse.

Because then then you're not actually able to really communicate. 'Cause some people actually are nicer, some people aren't. I'm not gonna go into the details about that. Anybody listening that knows what I'm talking about I would say if you truly want to stay in the right frame of mind and not leave with feeling regret, because that's usually what people do, they'll try to pull you in.

and then it's just poke, poke, poke and the next thing you know, you lose your temper and that's what they remember

Lisa:
Right, right.

Dr. Kelly:
They don't even have to be poking you actually, Lisa. They can have to be just be doing that sweet thing, but it's actually, you know, not you don't believe them What were you going to take?

Lisa:
Oh, so maybe instead keep a bottled water handy for hydrating and bottled, you know, some cranberry juice, some water And it might be a win for someone to from what you're saying to maybe not choose alcohol. at one of these holiday get togethers. I If it helps them get it through.

Dr. Kelly:
Positively, I would say, you know, it's really if you try something different. If you know what? If they're always traumatic But it for me it was like, yeah, I was the sober one and I'm the one that remembers everything.

Oh, nobody else really remembers what they said or did, but I do And I have the painful memories. But I now get to choose when I leave. And by the way, I I want to let you know I have an amazing family.

I love all my family members. I'm talking mostly about really early childhood stuff and then into my like adulthood.

Lisa:
Right.

Dr. Kelly:
But truly, it's not for the right. When you don't have control over the choices, is that's what trauma is. It things are outside of your control.

So you control the things that you can. Because I have this as an illustration. Do you know what this is?

Is that a it goes on a pan, doesn't it? Yeah. This is uh This is one of those that actually uh in the in the olden days they actually had the olden days Back when we were kids.

No, just getting uh they had You're young and hard, Kel. Small potbelly stoves and then you would put they had it they didn't have room for all the pot handles So what they did was they had the pots in one handle so that you could just click on it, move it around, move around these hot pots. So I hope that some of the things that we have shared that because we've talked about some hot pots that could be messy, right?

And you're gonna move them around. And you can do that in your own strength, or you can do it in the strength uh of, well, for me. It's Jesus.

I like cry out for him. I'm like, I'm already been on my knees praying in my hot tub for the holidays and that I would live, not as those without hope, but that I would actually be that bright bright light at a family gathering or wherever I go and people say you're so happy. I love it when people say you're so happy.

I'm like I'm not happy Leave I am not a happy person. I'm not. I have joy.

Jesus, others, and you. So that's the order that gives me joy because I think that life is very, very hard. It really, really is.

We can't catch our breath sometimes

Lisa:
You know, and when you say that about life being hard and we can't catch our breath, there uh there's some things, there's um some words in the Bible about don't be anxious. about anything and how um god gives us peace when we choose to not be anxious and and instead he gives us peace and protects our mind with that And there's another verse that says, Cast all your anxiety on God. And I love that because cast is a pretty forceful verb. And I love verbs in the Bible. But That whole thing about casting it, like throwing it.

Dr. Kelly:
I used to cast when I fished in Florida, I would just cast I had to have really heavy sinkers And I I had to throw that over my head.

Lisa:
You helped teach my children how to fish years ago. It took them sometimes and but yes, that it takes force. I'm not a big fisherman, but to be able to cast it and to give that to God because I can't carry that.

I could not walk through the first Christmas without my mom. I I uh you being able to walk through the holidays with losing your twin around the holidays and your mother's birthday and then some of the things that some of the trauma and choices that were made by adults in your life that affected you. And still you have said, okay, I'm gonna drown if I don't push this off.

On God's the only one who can handle all that. Do you have any other thoughts on that?

Dr. Kelly:
Well, I I w would like to clarify that the first year I was numb like with Tommy. So uh when we lose people, uh t some people are just numb. So if you don't remember that holiday, be gentle with yourself Like, I mean, I don't think any of us expected one for us to be there for one another.

We just somehow I we don't remember it. Where were you It it's like we were there, but uh some trauma It's so shocking. Yeah.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Dr. Kelly:
And so for some people if it's like somebody made decisions for you, um, it's like and they're not there or it's different because now you have two houses and you're you have to go between two houses and some people have to do two or more. So it's like okay and then because of separations uh within marriage relationships. It's like where do the children go?

And now it's maybe the first shared holiday or somebody has custody or per you have to release your child to the person that you don't trust. So there's lots of hot pots moving around. But for me, I was numb.

And it took time. So I say be gentle with yourself. Communicate your boundaries.

Remember that that Thanksgiving really truly, like Lisa, you said earlier, it's to be grateful. What are you grateful for? And then uh cast all your care upon the Lord because he careth for you.

And so as we move to Christmas, I do love Christmas.

Lisa:
And I think it's absolut I love that you can say that after some of the things you walked through as a child.

Dr. Kelly:
Yeah. I mean, uh We we have a lot of people that we know in our life that have had traumatic past between you know, we're not shy people, right? So I I don't compare I think to compare is to despair.

So I wouldn't minimize the loss of a sibling for somebody else because it wasn't a twin any more than I do for my sis my siblings, they lost any loss. Right. Right.

Lisa:
It's huge.

Dr. Kelly:
Right. Just for me because it was like my right arm. You know, initially.

But as we approach Christmas It really is about Thanksgiving is about being grateful. And Christmas is not about presents. It's about being present.

So be present. And then my greatest present, by the way, was Uh well the gift of Jesus. So yeah, sure.

We have, you know, Santa, and by the way, I Do love children and they love presents and I love cookies, but you get all pulling all that together. There's a lot in there

Lisa:
Yeah, but I like how you said earlier, show up for yourself even. Yeah. And uh and enjoy And the cookies can be a part of that.

But even then being there showing up for other people, how do you not um let thinking about other people at that time of year overwhelm you. You did ta you've talked about boundaries and things. Are there any other tips?

with that. You've said walk away if you need to graciously from a conversation and things. Are there any other thoughts on that?

Well, boundaries protect what we love.

Dr. Kelly:
If it's a person that you know loves you but they just frustrate you. You can be you can actually communicate and say, Well, we didn't agree we didn't Think similarly last year. We didn't agree last year and we probably won't this year, but I'm so glad to see ya.

And you know, stay a little longer, meaning with the conversation. As as soon as some people start talking to us, we're like, I can't get out of this conversation fast enough. Then you're not really being present.

Right. Right? So be present for the two minutes or three minutes that you are interacting with them and then say, I need to step away.

You know, we've often feel like we have to come like explain why we can't take a phone or it's not a good time. You could just say, I need to step away.

Lisa:
And you that's so good, yeah. And don't you don't have to apologize or feel guilty about doing so.

Dr. Kelly:
No, but that's the thing. That would be like false guilt. Like for some people that you just enjoy more Hmm.

Hey sorry, you don't you don't say it, hey, you know I I kinda I've been wanting to talk to I enjoy that person more. Yeah, like is there anybody else that you would like to talk to? Because I see my Aunt Ida over there.

I'm on my way over. You know what I'm saying? Like you can just be present for that conversation and then Let it go.

What are they gonna do? Grab you by the arm and say, No, I'm not done talking about this. Well, it depends on the person.

But why a party before you get there? Why make all these decisions before you get there and and arrive all amped up because you're expecting the worst to happen Why not go and go for the other people and not let that one person hijack it? That one person hijack the whole room?

Are you gonna give them that much power? Now I'm sounding like a psychologist. Why

Lisa:
Well you are a psychologist and I love what you just said. Wow. That's really powerful.

Uh you know, Kelly, you said um uh one time of um plan for the imperfections. because life has a whole lot of imperfections and the holidays really do, no matter how much we see all the perfection and touched up movies and commercials and whatever. And uh first of all Comparing is really not great.

I know if I compared the stuff I do is gonna fall far short from what a lot of people do. But I love Christmas and I love loving my people at Christmas and loving other people in different ways. And um but that doesn't mean it's going to be the same as other people.

It's different for other people. But um how do you um uh you know prepare for the imperfections, imperfect people, imperfect Whatever might show up.

Dr. Kelly:
Well I prepare by preparing I put a lot of prayer into it.

Lisa:
Explain that.

Dr. Kelly:
Well, I I just I ask God for help. I truly do. I'm like, I need help because you can be subjective There's objective and subjective.

Some people are higher subjective. And that means you know you're high subjective if you've heard somebody say it's not personal. You take everything personal.

Well, I am a higher subjective person I do take some things personal. So I have had to learn to wrestle that because there are assessments for that. You can find out how subjective or objective you are And so I say, okay, this isn't personal and I want to be present.

Uh everything is not a personal attack. It keeps you high hostile. And then you're just like going in looking for it.

I have had to personally say, you know what? If I really want to be others oriented, and I do, then I have to set aside what I am feeling. about uh what they're are what are they trying to say.

And then I use all that energy and if a high subjective person Then you're like, what did they mean? And you wake up thinking about it or you drive home. It's like you can just ask them.

Can you explain that? I'm not not sure what what what do you mean by that? And then they're like, yeah.

And they oh, okay, they reframe it. But otherwise, unless you say, you know I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What's the matter with saying that?

Not sure I understand. And then they s th they give you what they mean and then you leave Oh yeah, they were like They were just talking about something from work. It has nothing to do with you.

And then the final thing that I rec I use this remote for, not just a TV. Everybody has a remote that is from a TV that they don't have anymore. This is this this is probably ten years old, my insignia And I tell people, just imagine like you have like the movie click, it's duct taped to your hand, it's glued here, go into your gatherings, and you s you can pause.

You can rewind and ask, could you explain that? I think I misunderstood it because you're starting to feel it like, oh Or you can on your way to the gathering and to the tables and to the Christmas trees and to the different homes, you can actually say you can rewind, play it again. Rewind, play it again.

No. You can't fast forward through Christmas. You can't no it's against the law It's against the law of Christmas.

Lisa:
You have don't miss Christmas. Enjoy it, right? Step into it.

You know, so many of these are intentional choices I really like. that remote illustration of rewind asking someone to reframe or pause, step away. Um, but we can't fast forward and we choose to show up or we choose not to show up and we can't fix everything.

But Kelly, I love some of these tips that you've given just of how to walk through when we feel broken. You know, if we feel lonely at Christmas, if we feel um uh you know, broken if we feel uh uh there's been a relationship, whether it's loss of a loved one or a recent divorce or uh something finances and we even touched on, you know, if someone doesn't want to go on, what if I can you just t speak to that person who's like, you know The holidays are just too much. I don't I don't forget it the family or friend get togethers.

I just can't do this this year. and they are looking for a more permanent way out. What would you say to someone who just doesn't want to go on anymore?

Dr. Kelly:
I I've been told that a few quite a few times in my career as a counselor for 25 and psychologist for eight. And I I ask them this question now. So if somebody, if you were sitting in front of me, if you're listening or observing this, and you're sitting in front of me and you're saying, I don't want to live.

That's in essence, I don't want to live. I would ask you this question and I ask you now. Is it that you truly don't want to live?

Do you not want to live Or is it that you don't want to live this way? If something changed about your situation, would you want to live? And you know what, Lisa?

So many people, in fact, I haven't had anybody say, yeah, I really don't want to live. They say, no, I don't want to die. I just don't want to live this way.

Lisa:
Right.

Dr. Kelly:
So is it that you don't want to live this way? If something changed about your situation, would you want to live? And they said yes, every single one of them.

And so what can you do about that? Well, I know a risen Savior who overcame and conquered death. And he descended on this earth so that we could have hope.

And he will never ever disappoint you. He has never disappointed me. And I want to let you know that that that's the hope that I reach for.

And that's what I would encourage you to. Uh, that's what I would say to them.

Lisa:
Hmm. And you know, I can't help but think of how the Bible, which has s such hope all through the pages about every life situation. I love I jotted this down.

It says how Jesus came that they may have life. and have it to the full. And so I can't help but think of how walking through the holidays And you've done this as well with your intentional choices and some of the thoughts you've given us today, even of how to walk through the holidays when we feel broken, that God does offer life.

And fully, not just a little, but full, like in choosing intentionally to not be happy, like you said, we're not happy, but to have that joy. And I love that. And that's what Christmas is ultimately all about that God sent his only son and that anyone who believes in him will not die, but have life forever, everlasting life, and life for eternity, but life also here on earth and Kelly thank you for sharing so much hope with us today and so many tangible things And I'm gonna think about that remote illustration just in my everyday life.

What do I need to pause? What do I need to rewind and reframe and clarify? And not to fast forward, but to really choose to intentionally be present in each moment because there's broken with families and spouses and parents and children and siblings.

And in the middle of so much broken, God sent his only son. And I love the hope that can come with that. And a whole lot of hopeful tips that you gave us today.

So Kelly, I hope you have thank you so much for everything you shared.

Dr. Kelly:
Thank you.

Lisa:
I hope you have an amazing Thanksgiving and holiday season and Christmas. And I can't wait to hear about your tree that you get. from Tommy Zaker named after your brother.

So Mary Christmas Lisa, I am thankful for you. Oh, I'm thankful for you, Kelly. And friend, I'm thankful for you.

I really hope you're leaving encouraged and have some hope. Stepping into this holiday season and don't feel as broken. I really hope you're leaving feeling that way and just having some A little more that you can say, I choose to step into this this way and this gathering in this way, and thank you to my friend.

Dr. Kelly and her wisdom. And I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving, wonderful holiday season, and a wonderful Christmas.

Lisa:
See you next time on Thrive in the Mess Friend.