A Daughter & Her Dad - The Laughs, Losses, & Lessons | with Special Guest: Her Dad, Ron Hutchcraft

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I'm glad you're here and this is a really special week for me, I have a very special guest. I would not be here if it wasn't for him, and it is my dad, Ron Hutchcraft. And so I'm thrilled to have you here, Dad.

Ron:
Well, I wouldn't be a daddy if you hadn't come I mean, you know, you changed my name forever.

Lisa:
That's right. That's right. And I will tell you, I feel like I have a tiny piece of mom with us today after she passed away several years ago.

I found a place where I could take some of her handwriting. And this is the necklace that says I love you dearly, mommy. I ordered it a few years ago, so um I but I pulled it out for today to be able to have a little touch of mom with us today.

Ron:
So you gonna get me one?

Lisa:
I really wouldn't see more necklaces from from uh Karen for you. Oh from my mom. So Dad, I was a very inquisitive child.

Ron:
Full of questions. Indeed. Yes.

Lisa:
And we're gonna continue that here decades later today. How wonderful. It might not be like, how does this work or can I do this or can I do that?

And in our old home movies, I'm always the one who's jumping in from the camera going like this and there's no sound so who knows what's going on your self awareness is uh very impressive jumping in front of my brothers and so my youngest brother feels like there's no video footage of him probably in part because his older sister. No, he's in that one. He's in that one.

Yeah. So we're just gonna kinda jump in, Dad.

Ron:
I think we just did.

Lisa:
One of the questions I wanted to ask you was when I was little, when and why did you decide to start calling me princess? And you still do decades of the year.

Ron:
I do. I do. You know, um mom was uh had a little infection which she so she couldn't nurse for a while.

So Uh I said, Well honey, I'll take the two A. M. feeding, being noble as I am. Uh no, it was really great. It was a very special time.

I'm sure you remember it vividly. And uh I got the old bottle out and um you had uh no hair then and I had a lot and then now you have a lot and never mind. Um but uh during during those times and I never did talk baby talk to you, you know I would Talk talk politics and news and all kinds of stuff, Bible verses and uh and and I just I I I I w I had a hard time finding feelings for for I mean, you know, and I I do I have a lot of words, but it was very hard.

This was opening up a whole new compartment in my heart to have have a daughter, your firstborn child, it's a girl, and um and I just uh I think it just came out one night uh at it's a two AM special probably just to say And I love you, Princess. And I and I thought, uh and you didn't say anything back, but uh that took a little while. But I said, I love you, Princess, and that continued.

And I think it was you know, I don't want to be too analytical about it. It just it was special, it remains special. A lot of years have gone by, but you know, uh often on a call or a text or whatever, uh it's princess.

And You always were, you always have been, you always will be, and I think it was a matter of just uh a sense of the tremendous value I felt for you. And I love that was hard to express and it kinda all got bottled up in a in a in Princess.

Lisa:
I should say also you have no idea what uh is in my ten questions here. I have no but this first one is actually a bonus one, so we're done with one So we're good.

Ron:
Oh, wait, no.

Lisa:
So here and I really appreciate hearing that 'cause I have uh I do believe It is so priceless the impact of that, the value and worth you helped instill in your daughter. And I I hope every person, it were so uniquely made by God. Every person different and special and uniquely us and needed. here on earth because he put us here and so I thank you for even instilling that. I and it's interesting it came out of a heart of a new dad.

Ron:
So I love hearing that's a good looking for a way to Express what he was feeling. You know, it's interesting that um in the Bible, you know, I've spent my whole life in youth ministry and um I and it in um Corinthians it says that uh we are sons and daughters of the Almighty. And when you think of that, if that's true, and he certainly is described as the King of Kings in the Bible, then if you're a son or daughter of the king, that's called princess, that's called prince.

And I don't know that that was in my mind at that time, but I've had the opportunity to tell a lot of uh teenage young women uh and young men the opposite part that um to God you are a princess in his family if you've been born into his family and Uh a lot of times we're pretty beat up as far as our self-worth. We get a lot of what I call identities hammered at us all day long, uh and comparing yourself to people online and on socials and so on. And it it just drags you down.

But to begin to think of yourself as a princess in God's family, um, th you don't have to have a human dad that called you that. Right. You have a heavenly father

Lisa:
And sadly some people ha hear a lot of other things that we need to change the the recording in our mind of what we hear and and when we choose that relationship with God that just changes so much. Okay, another question. What's a lesson you learned from a childhood experience? What's a lesson you learned from a childhood experience?

Ron:
Stream of consciousness. The first thing that came to mind. We lived in an apartment on the south side of Chicago.

And we had and uh so our heat source was radiators. Now some people are like, what in the world is a radiator? But it's you know, it's this metal thing in the floor that heats up with steam and was in the floor and the wall.

Yeah, in the f on the floor. And and that's what heat up the room. So me saying we had a rule at our house that I couldn't miss a day of school unless I had a fever.

Oh shit. So yeah. So I decided if I sat on the radiator That that I could have a fever and not go to school that day.

Yeah. Did it work? Uh It worked on that part of my body.

Uh yeah. That part of me had a fever. Yeah.

But the rest of me didn't it does now. Should there be anybody who was tempted to try that, I don't know why they would or even if you could anymore Um, it really was dumb. So no don't don't sit on a radiator.

That's great. That's no. What lesson do you learn? We'll throw that one that way.

Fatherly wisdom. Yeah.

Lisa:
Okay, we'll move a little longer on that's great. That's really funny. I don't know. In all my years we he we share so many family stories that we all just laugh about so much. But I think that might be a new one that I've heard.

Ron:
Wow, I didn't know I had any new ones.

Lisa:
If you were to draw a picture of Ron at age sixteen What would be in that picture? If you were to draw a picture of Ron at age 16, what would be in that picture?

Ron:
First of all, any picture I would draw would be unrecognizable. I got you. Yeah.

I would be a stick figure, which I wasn't. No, I would be chubby, because I was. And I would be laughing. Uh and I would probably be trying to make someone else laugh.

So if they were laughing, uh if I could have somebody else in the picture, they would be laughing. Uh I think it was one way that um I could get attention because when you're heavy you feel like, you know, what's who's you know, who's gonna like you and And uh but I but I I I I could with a sense of humor have some uh you know, that I think friends, people like to be around me because I made them laugh. Um and I would um uh I it's possible that I might have a Bible uh i i in my hand or nearby.

Because um the Bible didn't matter to me as a teenager. I would say a lot of it was in my head and hadn't not nearly as much had made it to my heart yet. But uh but I I had learned to love a lot of the stories in the Bible and so on.

So it's p and I did take my Bible to school sometimes actually. Um and uh I would uh uh what what hair I I had more hair than, but it would have been combed almost exactly the same way. 'Cause that's the way my mother combed it and I'm honoring my mother by you know, not changing it, yeah?

And um trying to think if there's anything else. I probably would have a few people around me Right. Uh because w you know, I was pretty sociable.

Um and um I I might have some books with me too because I I was a good student. So I did take my studies pretty seriously.

Lisa:
Well, and it uh hearing you talk a little bit about age sixteen, I can't help but think of when I was sixteen, you and mom just with some of your uh parental guidance, the way you were, you gave us freedom to make some choices while we were at home, not just it you didn't really uh squash us, you know, and say, okay, no, no, no, no, to you can only do live this way, whatever. But I know one example of even asking about certain movies and things and I looking back, I appreciate your attentiveness, I don't think I was reading movie reviews. I would just be like, hey, a friend asked me to, you know, groups going to see such and such movie. And you would just share how you you stayed very informed as a parent, so you could be a parent, you know. And so I just really appreciated that because that just kind of the way you would explain it of Hey, this is, you know, just some of the review and um but a lot of times you left the choice with us, but enough of you you know, sharing things, it really ended up being uh

Ron:
That's called respect. You know, I think that it's important for for your child to feel respected, even when they're little. Uh and you're preparing them to live without you.

That's a parent's job. Hard to hard to say that, hard to believe it. But you gotta prepare them to live without you and and you can't make all their choices for them.

Now there's some risk in that. But you do need to prepare them and help them know how to make decisions. And so, you know, we would have conversations about, well, uh consider this uh in an

Lisa:
Like Tevya and Fiddler on the Roof on the other hand, you know, and we'd say You were very good with that, right?

Ron:
Here's here's on the other hand, you know, think about this. And uh I remember your brother uh saying there was something, uh a movie all his buddies were going to see and I wasn't too excited about it 'cause it was pretty violent and that was feeding a side of him that didn't need to be fed. And uh and so he was uh saying, Can I go with him, Dad?

And I said, Well, let me tell you, uh let me tell you, I know why you want to go and here's and it's very popular right now and I see uh that's an experience you and your friends want to have to get on the other hand uh just some things about it uh that some things that happened in that movie I've read the review and so And he's waiting for the hammer to fall and I said but you wouldn't do the hammer, you would give guidance. I said but I trust you. And he he's really to this day he's like Oh no. Just tell me no. It's great words.

Don't trust me.

Lisa:
It they're very honoring words, but it does put it back in the child's.

Ron:
He remembers and and I've heard this from all of you in one form or another that he said the greatest thing you and mom ever did for us as kids was you trusted us. Right. Well, you don't know at the time.

You have no idea if it's too much trust, if you're gonna regret uh letting it l you know, so there are it's tr it's trust within boundaries. And I I believe that what you do is you give you give trust um transfers and say, let's try trust this far and see how that goes. And If you do well with that, let's have more trust.

And and remember when you got your mom, when you guys got your driver's license, she let you drive like up and down in the driveway or Whatever that was, you know.

Lisa:
Well it was terrifying Jersey where we grew up to begin with.

Ron:
You know, you got to drive farther and farther and no you didn't go initially with friends, you know, and then there were different Uh weighs you one trust. And so uh thank God you don't know if it's working or not.

Lisa:
Right. Okay. So thank you for that. And Who were some mentors in your life and what did they teach you?

Ron:
Uh did you say tormentors in my life?

Lisa:
No. It could be either.

Ron:
Mentors.

Lisa:
Um sometimes it's some of both. So I would say that um

Ron:
There was a youth leader in our church. He was a mechanic, you know, he wasn't a m trained minister. But he w he he he really taught he didn't do a good job teaching our Bible clas uh our Sunday school class and I th I think I just caught from him um a uh a a real passion for the Bible.

I think that he probably uh had an effect on me. This was just uh one one thing. It wasn't but There was an another a pastor, actually, who um uh kind of believed in me um and showed it.

He was very loving, very caring. Uh and he uh uh he knew that I I did some you know, messing around. I I f I did a little speaking as a as a teenager and nothing big no big deal.

But he he encouraged that and uh and he bought me a book of illustrations that I could use in talks and stuff like that. And so I haven't really thought about that, but you're bringing that bringing that up

Lisa:
So he These are worse stories I haven't heard of.

Ron:
Well he saw something well uh that I had a strength in and uh watered it.

Lisa:
Um sometimes all it takes is one person to speak into that in our life.

Ron:
And then a little later uh on in in you know into my twenties and so on Um I began to be influenced by a um uh a youth speaker, uh Jay, you know, and and he

Lisa:
He did your wedding then. Yeah, he did.

Ron:
And uh and and uh Karen was very uh uh very important in that uh p uh wedding too. She we couldn't have done it without her, but Um my mom. Yes. You know, uh he would uh we had a few strategic conversations at crossroads in my life, and he would just have a way of Asking good questions, which you have that gift as well.

Lisa:
I think I learned a lot of that from you down too over the years, absolutely. But so much is caught, you know.

Ron:
uh think through things and um and i I can I can point to several points along the way. And then and this may be for later in our conversation, but I would say, uh, this may sound strange to some people, but uh more than any other person in my life, my wife, uh, she didn't We didn't she didn't sit down and say you need work. Um which I probably did.

Um let's I'm going to mentor you. I I don't know that I just know that by holding up a mirror to me and telling me strengths that I maybe didn't see and things I needed to work on. I think there were more of those.

Um that She was a major shaping influence in my life. I hope I did some of that for her. I don't know, but I do know I know that I can point to ways that I am different.

And a lot of guys don't um listen and take uh the advice of a woman seriously. I think that's a huge mistake. Uh I think uh a a a strong man appreciates a strong woman and her perspective and we need to hold have somebody hold up a mirror to us and instead of us going Well, Harumph, uh, how could you say that?

Lisa:
Right, right.

Ron:
If there's something ugly about me, I should know it before other people see it. And um please love me enough to tell me the truth. She did. And so though that was not a mentoring relationship, um It was certainly impacting really she had a ministry of improving in my life.

Lisa:
I love hearing all that because you had people see your gifts. We all have different gifts and unique gifts and talents that God has wired us with and I I love that that there were people who saw you and spoke into your life at that age. So Um okay, we got another one.

Ron:
Wait, I'm gonna say guys, listen to the women in your life. There we go. Okay.

Lisa:
There we go.

Ron:
Click

Lisa:
So Dad, which book or books have you read that really helped shape your worldview other than the Bible?

Ron:
Oh my goodness.

Lisa:
Book or books.

Ron:
I wrote, I I uh wrote, yes I did write a couple books, but I read a book years ago. I just told uh uh students in a class here about this um that uh there was a book called Honesty, Morality and Conscience And it was really a about dishonesty and lying and r and r and deceit and how lying is more than just actually saying something that's not true, it's the intention to deceive.

Lisa:
Wow, very well.

Ron:
And and that covers a lot more areas where I I want you to believe something I know isn't true. And If I'm attempting to deceive you, it may not even be, well I didn't really tell a lie. Well you were you wanted I wanted you to believe something that I knew wasn't true.

Um and that book really um made me think about that and made me uh realize that, you know, for a guy who uh has a lot of words, it's really easy to use words to get out of a jam or to get what you want or whatever and to exaggerate or to m to deceive or whatever. And I was still still a pretty young man, and I remember actually praying and saying, God, would you please, like a smoke detector I need a lie detector in my heart. Wow.

And I want you to please set off an alarm in my heart. Now Jesus taught that he was going to send the Holy Spirit who would do that, who will actually would be the spiritual smoke detector in our heart. And every time I am saying something, it isn't quite the truth, I just want to, whoa, whoa.

I mean, I want that to go off in my heart. And and God certainly w was ready for the to do that and and uh and he has done that throughout my life. Like uh so It sometimes you would just hear me say, well actually, uh and and um I you would think I was just making a correction when in fact I had heard the alarm.

And so that book that book was uh was really, as you can tell, very influential in my life. And I don't think I ever talked about that. No, and you've had such integrity.

Lisa:
in your life. It's one of the things we so respect about you and you are yourself when w people have asked me over the years if they've heard you you know, on radio or wherever, they're like, is he the same? You know, is he really the real deal or whatever? And I'm like, and even his humor is the same at all.

Ron:
For better or for worse. Exactly.

Lisa:
For worse. Yeah

Ron:
So that that's that's one example. I I don't know why this that's what popped into my head.

Lisa:
Wow. Well that that's great. So there we go.

This is like uh interesting Are you throwing away my answers too? Oh no, you're interested in the right. We're just being dramatic too.

Ron:
Oh, okay.

Lisa:
So this is a big question to me. Why Jesus Because you are very intelligent. Some people say if you're smart, why do you believe in Jesus then?

and people encouraged you to be a lawyer. That would have been a much uh very high paying uh i you know, you were uh intelligent, encouraged to go into a field that would have been very lucrative m most likely. You had some hard times that could have soured you, made you bitter towards God.

You lost a brother when you were five. He was gone one night. Back then people didn't talk about that.

He was just gone. You never heard anything else. He was just never came back.

You moved a lot, so you were constantly having to change friend groups, meet people, and even though you were outgoing, that's a lot, you know. So Um, why believe in Jesus if you have some hard times like that and smart and all those things?

Ron:
Well, I'm not Sure the people that are listening are would say, Yeah, you're not that smart. I don't know how smart are you really. But um I would uh I would say first of all, uh let's let's talk about the evidential part of it. Um I was uh I was in a uh a class in my senior year of high school, uh where it was we didn't have exams, we didn't have papers, it was supposedly some of the top students and uh our our prof or teacher would just um uh we'd have different s uh subjects for you know maybe a four month a four week period of time and one of them was comparative religions And so we talked about different religions and how and and the the teacher challenged all of us and said, uh, if you had not been raised the way you've been raised. Would you believe what you believe?

Lisa:
Wow.

Ron:
And I thought, that was a disturbing question, and I couldn't bury it. So I began to uh check out some things for myself. And no one knew it, but I, you know, it was uh uh I I had I allowed myself to doubt a little bit, which hadn't I hadn't before.

And I investigated the claims of Jesus to be a God become man. And I looked for evidence to the contrary. There was none.

Um, but there was a mountain of evidence that he had lived a perfect life. under the scrutiny of people who day and night were watching him.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Ron:
They would do anything to catch him in one sin and and bring him down. And uh and under constant surveillance, uh his perfect life was demonstrated and and held up. Uh and finally uh uh his accusers, in order to crucify him, had to bring in false witnesses and and have false testimonies.

The only way to convict him of anything. But most importantly, uh it was investigating the resurrection of Jesus Christ because If in fact he had walked out of his grave under his own power, case closed, he has validated everything he's ever said at that point and never claimed. And uh the evidence is extremely persuasive of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

At a time when the Romans wanted to prove that it hadn't happened, the Jewish leaders wanted to prove it hadn't happened, everybody in authority around them said, we have got to prove this didn't happen. All you have is six historians who attest to Jesus Christ being alive. Follow that, you've got his followers who had abandoned him uh at the point of his arrest.

Even having promised they wouldn't, uh they scattered like little mice uh immediately because they're like, he's gonna be crucified and we'll be next. They kind of get rid of us too. And yet all of them died for Jesus.

And and except for one of his twelve during died of vi vi horrible deaths.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Ron:
And That's when you go, uh guys, I quit. It's it I don't it's not that important to me that I'm gonna die. Um so uh and then now let's get down to the personal side, the experiential side.

I just know that I have been changed, my parents were changed. Thousands of young people I have known over the years have been changed. Marriages have been saved.

Addicts have been delivered from that which nobody else could get them free from and changes that nobody could ever make. And people have said, then Jesus came. And he is the only explanation for changes in me and people I love and people I have known, and over 2,000 years.

There's just no explanation but Jesus. There was a blind man who blind from birth, the Bible says, and it says that Jesus healed him one day. And uh the religious leaders called him a psyh 'cause they were trying to find something wrong with Jesus.

And they said, you know, he did it on the Sabbath day. He shouldn't have done that. It was like, I was blind, guys.

Come on, give me a break. And um they're like, Well, who do you think he is? And he's like, Well, I don't really know a lot of theology.

And he said, I'll tell you what I know. He's then this is right out of the Bible, this part. He said I was blind.

You guys know that. You went by me every day. I was blind.

And now I can see you. In between Jesus. You figure it out.

Well, there's millions of those in between Jesus. So between the evidence and the human evidence of a living Christ people who can only be explained by a living savior, by a perfect life, by words that have changed lives and civilizations for 2,000 years. Wherever his message goes, hospitals grow up, education, schools are started, um, uh whatever.

It's just and while while His followers are not always great representatives, and many of us fail to show people what he's like. Don't judge him by us. Jesus never said, follow my followers.

He never said follow my leaders. He never said follow my religion. He didn't come to start a religion.

You might look up in a dictionary and says, Jesus Christ, founder of Christianity. He didn't come to found a religion called Christianity. He came to make a way to God for us that could only be made by our death penalty for running our own lives to be paid.

Somebody perfect had to do that, so he didn't have any sin of his own to pay for. That's Jesus. That's what happened when he died on the cross.

So um Uh you know, you say, well, if you're smart, why would you believe in Jesus? I I would say, man, it's the smartest thing you could ever do. Right.

Lisa:
Well, I I can't believe like these are all questions you didn't know what I was gonna ask you I did not. And to hear that, I don't think we've heard that story, at least I haven't, about the you know, the season of doubting and allowing that and um and your family, you grew up in a family your first few years of life, your parents did not

Ron:
Never heard anything Jesus.

Lisa:
Yeah, never heard anything uh spiritually or anything. And uh but it was the death of your um your baby brother that They wanted to they they began seeking spiritually. So, um and your life was forever changed, which is amazing.

So wow, really appreciate hearing that, Dad. And Um, okay, here we go. You and mom, I feel that one landed behind me.

You and mom were very intentional parents. But you had three strong-willed children.

Ron:
Let's talk about that. Let's tell stories about that.

Lisa:
How did you manage that? How did you manage the mess of that And how did you thrive as parents? We're talking about thriving in the mess. There's a lot of mess with strong-willed children. So And mom isn't even alive anymore to thank her for you know, I know I did over the years, but I know we were a handful. But

Ron:
Yeah. Um you were a basketful. Uh I not just you. Um Well you plural. There's uh there's a saying that says parents get the children they deserve.

Lisa:
So probably No your brothers are not here to defend themselves.

Ron:
Mom and I are both bro strong willed people, so Um we we you came by it honestly. But I think one of the things we uh somebody, one of us realized early on is That a strong will is good news in your child. Instead of saying, oh man, this kid is so stubborn, strong-willed, there's a lot A lot of battles, a lot of hard conversations come from that.

That's true. But if you want a child who's going to be a make-a-difference child, who is a difference maker, who is willing to stand up when everybody else is doing something stupid, dumb, or wrong You want to nurture the good side of that strong will to be the right kind of person in an upside-down world and a very confusing culture. uh you did you need a strong will.

So you want to encourage that part of the strong will. Now it can be my way or the highway strong will as well. And I think um showing respect is important.

And we c we commented on that earlier. And dealing with things um You know, I said that when you were a baby and becoming my princess that I talked adult talked to you. That's funny.

I hope I always did. I hope we tried with our kids to reason with them. uh to be reasonable, uh to listen before you talk.

Uh in the great wisdom of the Bible it says, uh he who answers before listening. That is his folly and his shame. You should be ashamed of yourself if you answer before you listen.

And a lot of times as parents, uh, we hear a sentence and we're like, oh no, I know the rest. I know the rest of the paragraph. We do it in marriage too.

Oh yeah, I know what you're gonna say. Yeah, okay. And we never hear them out, so you might hear some of their words, but you never hear their heart.

I think we tried to listen for your heart and there's a lot we didn't do right and we could have done better on. So I don't wanna set us up as g these great m models.

Lisa:
I often say Rick and I prayed that God would fill in the gaps because there's no perfect marriage.

Ron:
And and he does. But um and I I I think um we tried to um trying to think with strong will, I think you say yes whenever you can. If you say no to everything, lot of times out of fear.

Um but I think we said if it's if we can say yes or even a Guarded yes with some guardrails, some boundaries to the yes. Let's say yes as much as we can, because there's times we have to say no. Right. And uh I think then with a strong will, you also need what you need in a football game.

Um you need Tackling, no, you need you need referees. Uh no. You need boundaries and penalties that are clear Whenever guys go out on that field and if if they commit something, it's a penalty penalty worthy and uh and the rough blows the whistle. They'll go, where'd you get off that?

I can't do that. You say I can't hit them like that? What do you mean by that?

Everybody knows that going into the game. We know what the rules are.

Lisa:
Right.

Ron:
We know what the boundaries are. We know what the penalties are before you get in the f on the field. So you have to mark out the field clearly. Before there's an issue, before we don't do it in the middle of an argument over how late you were out last night.

Lisa:
Right.

Ron:
Uh do it on a Saturday morning, um, you know, after coffee. And Just say and let them let it be known. Let's talk it over.

And as you get older, you get more participation in the setting of the boundaries. You don't decide. Parents decide.

You be a mom, be a dad, but uh here are the boundaries. And now what do you think should happen if you don't do that? If there's violation.

What do you think? And so they get to weigh in a little bit on their own And and and and they say, I think you should say naughty girl and let us go. Um but um instead I and then there are penalties.

And they're agreed upon when there hasn't been an incident. Right. Worst possible time to deal with strong will is right after an incident.

Because it's all about that's that's all we're hearing is the well you didn't let my my friends said and Forget that. Do this incident-free. Make the boundaries.

So then there's there's fairness, and I think fairness is very important. Especially to a strong willed child. They have a strong sense usually part of their strong will is a strong sense of fair and unfair.

Lisa:
Justice, race.

Ron:
A lot of times it's self-serving in the definition of fairness, but You have to that's where some respect comes in. So and and and then a path to freedom that shows that if you demonstrate responsibility at this level you have earned more freedom. So rather than us being uh being uh uh enemies of and standing in the way of we're saying, hey, you gotta do life on your own before very long. So we want you to have freedom practice. We just want to make sure you can handle it and you're not it's not gonna hurt you.

Lisa:
Right.

Ron:
I don't know if that helps But those I haven't thought about this for years. I don't know if I've ever thought it through like, oh, I have that question to answer and somebody's listening.

Lisa:
So Oh that's so good. Yes. Cause ever uh there's just a lot of that of I know mom would say she would she would rather we have strong will than not, because she wanted us to be able to take a stand for you know what we believed in someday. Okay, so I you love reading God's word, the Bible, and do you have a verse that you call like a life verse and why is that so significant for you?

Ron:
Yes, uh, and uh it's in the book of Romans in the New Testament, chapter 8, verse 37 And it says, first of all, the verse right before it talks about the biggest c catastrophes you could have in life. It talks about hunger and famine and and uh uh d violence and and lists some uh horrible things. It says in all these things These horrible things, even the worst life experiences, the worst seasons in life, in all these things, we are more than conquerors.

Oh well so I we are that's right I am at cock whoa whoa whoa we're not done yet through Him who loved us. The next verse goes on to talk about nothing in all su and creation can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. So there is In knowing that you are loved by God, beautiful or ugly, good or bad, sinner or saint Nothing I can do to make God love me more.

Nothing I can do to make God love me less.

Lisa:
Beautiful words, right?

Ron:
No strings, unconditional, unlosable love. Knowing you have that worth and knowing you are anchored in one love like that. There's only one like that.

Humans can't love like that perfectly. You can say I in even the worst situations in life, I can be more than a conqueror. through him who loved me.

I need that relationship. I need him. This is really about him being the strength.

But I'm able to come out on top. No matter what is on top of me.

Lisa:
Oh, that's good. Ooh, that great words to base your life on, that's for sure. So I d just following in the same vein here, you continue to get new insights all the time from God's Word.

I know We love hearing those you uh really kind of instilled that in some of us of just always learning. How do you discover more and more insights from the same book? After all these years.

Ron:
Well, when God authors a book, it's infinite has infinite depth. Yeah, you can and a and the thing is that you bring a different life to those verses. If I read it today and I read it a year from now, I've had a bunch of experiences, I've had disappointments, I've had decisions, I've made mistakes, I've got, you know, uh all kinds of stuff.

So now it's the same verse about a different me Right. And we're constantly we're never the same. And uh so that's part of it.

Lisa:
Um I actually will date some things. in my Bible. Not all the time, but sometimes I'll be like, oh, that's when I had uh my child was an infant or I'll be like that's right after mom died. And it it is true. The different seasons of life, you read it differently, it just isn't.

Ron:
Well, think of the verse we just talked about. In all these things. Well, all I those are I have different things.

Yeah. So at one point in my life, you know, I'm looking at um f uh w we're we're a young married couple and we just don't have money. Right.

And we're having to figure that out and how do we do li I know we have a baby and how is you and uh how how do we do this strong will tie yes all the seasons and so in all those things we are more than conquerors to him no now I come into another season of my life and uh and without going into detail, you know, there are times that you are betrayed by people you trust. And that hurts and dealing with that betrayal.

Lisa:
And even Jesus was You literally went through everything we will ever go through. Oh, that is so true.

Ron:
And and so now that's a very different in all these th and even in this feeling this way. Right. Uh I'm more uh so I'm just taking that one verse.

We can take Thousands of verses, but um and so uh I you know, when you're reading the f the very famous twenty-third Psalm, it says, The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, he leads me in beside still waters Ta leads me in green pastures, restores my soul, though I walk through the valley, the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Well you read that one. And then I read it for me after he died.

And and then uh and then when One day the love of my life couldn't have been more alive because it was it was it was it was uh Jordan, your son's graduation, our first grandchild. uh and she was gone the next day um now read those verses Um, he leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul.

I felt like my soul was bullet-riddled with that loss. Here is the hope of restoration. And then though I'm walk- I've just walked through the valley of the shadow.

I don't have to fear. Because you are with me. Now that those verses could mean something totally different to me in another season.

Lisa:
Right.

Ron:
Parenting, getting married, uh n moving, changing jobs, financial. But that day it has a different meaning to me. So God comes in with the right verse at the right time and Uh the Bible The Bible is is so much more than a textbook or a reference book or a religious book. It's a life book.

Lisa:
It's good to dust off.

Ron:
It's the ultimate life coaching.

Lisa:
And full of people's lives of who have walked through so many situations. I know you've been studying the life of David. I know we can't go into all that right now, but just all the things and I so just even hearing some of those takeaways from you during this time.

But oh that's good. Okay. We are going to jump into this.

You lost your wife, my mom. Nine and a half years ago, I can't believe it's been that long. It seems like yesterday and I don't mean that tritely, and it seems like it's been a long time also.

How has God used this loss in your life?

Ron:
I think people need to know that your your mother was a force. She was a force of love, a force of wisdom. uh maybe people could pick up from this conversation that uh she was my mirror, she was my uh most trusted counselor, uh the wisest person in my life ever.

Uh and I just happen to have married uh the wisest person i i uh uh just incredible. Uh cheerleader uh made us laugh when she laughed, as I said, when you and she laughed together. People picked it up on seismographs.

Uh it was loud. Um, and now you have enough for both of you, I think. Uh you've you've got you've picked up your laugh even.

Lisa:
But um Joy God gives joy during grief though. my mom's not here and we shared so much laughter. So that was part of just my interview.

You really did. But this is your story today. Well Uh I love all that you were sharing of her there.

Yeah.

Ron:
And so um to lose her, she we have a lot of we do a lot of work with Native Americans and we've been involved in the lives of many, many hundreds of young Native Americans across the continent. And they called her Mama Hutch, uh out of love for her role in their life. And Uh she would fight for people and uh up all night to fight for their life to f and you know.

So she was tremendous and and after she was gone I kept getting all these notes that said she made me feel. I got hundreds of them, no exaggeration. She made me feel important.

She made me feel like I could go on. She made me feel beautiful. She made me uh feel respected.

She made me feel se She made me feel nobody more than me. And then she was gone. Uh and as you know, uh the night before at uh Jordan's graduation.

Uh I had to leave that night and we were friends drove me through the night to get some place to speak in another state. And it was a wonderful night because he was valedictorian and he gave a wonderful speech and at the in the celebration. I said, well honey, I gotta go.

I love you. And she said, I love you. And then uncharacteristically she she had some tears in her eyes.

And we've had hundreds of goodbyes, because I've traveled a lot. And But I thought, oh I said, what's up? And she said, I'm really gonna miss you.

Lisa:
Oh, that gets me every time you say that.

Ron:
And and I said, and I said, Oh, don't worry, honey, it won't be long. Right. And I was wrong. And the next day I got the call from you guys. And um it was sudden, no warning.

Lisa:
We all were in the ER at that moment. Right.

Ron:
With you on FaceTime and I think it was it was uh I often say the best day of her life because she got to see heaven and she got to see Jesus. At the same time, it was the worst day of mine and yours and your brothers and and her uh all those who loved her, her grandchildren. Um and obviously it's still.

Lisa:
Oh, I do fine until you say that that line usually. But I'm the one who asked the question.

Ron:
I'm glad we got to express our love to each other that last time. You never know when it's going to be the last time you get to do that.

Lisa:
Um we're not promised tomorrow, I often say.

Ron:
No.

Lisa:
And especially because of that too. Right.

Ron:
And so uh I really felt like a lost little boy. Um I was like, I uh people would say Ron and Karen was like one word. Ron and Karen, Ron and Karen, Ron and Karen, Ron and Karen. And I thought, you know what? This I don't know how to do life without her.

Lisa:
Right.

Ron:
Since I was 19, I've done life with her.

Lisa:
There's only one person in college. Yeah. Yeah.

Ron:
There's only one person you have a shared history with. Who knows who's had all the same experiences, known all the same people.

Lisa:
Dealing with three strong-willed children with.

Ron:
Yeah, no kidding. Finish each other's sentences, you know. And So nobody can I mean I I have kids who are wonderful and loving and family, but nobody can be that person who's had who with whom you've shared everything in your life.

And So truly irreplaceable. Um and uh I I You know, I do believe now that when your heart is broken, it's ripped wide open. And something's going to come into that.

It's open in places it's never been open before. And something's going to come into that ripped open heart and lodge in your most vulnerable days of your life. uh it's going to lodge deep down in and then it may close up around it and it may define the rest of your life.

It could be bitterness, it could be uh anger, it could be um depression, it could be um uh uh uh doubt doubting God, it could be uh any number of things. Could self self-focus, I'm just gonna be all about me, fight for me. Or Jesus.

Because of Scripture is he is close to the brokenhearted. Now he's always there, but there's something. Now I know what that means.

Because I cried out to him. Desperate for some kind of I needed him to be for me what only he could be Because I needed somebody to go deep in here where nobody else can go. No counselor, no child, no person who loves you.

They would like to, they would if they could. Only Jesus can go there and only Jesus can do what he does. And uh keeping a journal, which is a good idea, uh I learn not to stuff Um but to share.

That ball to stuff your grief. But g give it up because you won't be able to keep it down there indefinitely the minute you let go and the more you've pushed it down, the higher it goes.

Lisa:
And more destructive sometimes with griefs what it does in their life.

Ron:
Shakespeare said, though not to me personally, but Shakespeare said, give sorrow words. And so I wrote it, I said it, I I spoke it.

Lisa:
You took intentional time and you really encouraged each of us to do that at the time I remember also.

Ron:
Now I got that from the Bible. He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul.

And I read that and I said, you gotta stop by the quiet waters, man. And yeah, I know all you've got to do, and you've got lists that are a mile long That doesn't matter right now. You have one job.

Lisa:
We have to sometimes God does allow us to be sidelined.

Ron:
But he did use that time to start to restore this bullet-riddled soul. And um And and the prayer, the thing I wrote in that journal, I'm glad I wrote it because I could not have conceived this. My mind's my brain was too scattered.

But I wrote these words, I will not waste this grief. If you could look at my journal, I have it right here with me. In fact, but somewhere Well, here it is.

Hi everybody. Um But this little white journal, and if you turn it just a few pages in, and I won't try to find it now because I know what I said, it says I will not waste this grief. And I didn't know exactly what that meant, but I had there was a prayer that followed it.

I said, Lord, if it's going to hurt this bad, somehow use it to make me more useful to you. And more helpful to other people. And honey, for the last nine and a half years, he's been answering that prayer.

I am living still to this day that answer. He began to use that to build in me a more tender heart. Um, I felt like I had something in common with the Grinch.

I'm not green. But but you know You want to hear what this means. You know uh what it says about after all the people in Hooville were still celebrating Christmas He said w after he stole their gifts, it says, and his heart grew three sizes.

Lisa:
Oh wow.

Ron:
And you already had a pretty big heart before.

Lisa:
You always cared about it.

Ron:
Uh but you know, a lot of times I would hear somebody going through something and I would stop and pray and you know that I'd dispense my comparing. That way and I'm because I've got my list. Look at my list, you know, my legal pads.

I got four of 'em right here. Um it's different now because um I stop, I call, I text. Um, I write, I do something, um, and it suddenly becomes more important than all the things on my crazy list.

that were what I thought were going to define the day. Wow. So that and many other things uh uh showed me purpose.

And I was told months later by a friend of mine who has I write a lot and have daily radio programs and blogs and so on. And And he said, I've been listening to you and I have been reading what you've been writing the last two months and he said, I have to tell you something. He said, You are reaching out to people from a deeper well than you ever have before.

And he's known my stuff for years, but he said there's a deeper well there. And I I almost teared up and I said Thank you. You just gave me a great gift because you don't know what I prayed months ago.

And I said, you just told me God's been answering that prayer. I can't see it. But you you was able to see it.

Lisa:
And so and now you're with my book Hope When Your Heart Is Breaking I was gonna say your journals were birthed into

Ron:
I never would have dreamed I'd write a book. I've written other books, but never dreamed I'd write on books.

Lisa:
But you didn't just cover a loss of a loved one.

Ron:
We grieve all through our life over losses. We lose dreams, we lose our health, we get bad news from the doctor. Uh we're f losing a child.

Um we still got junk from our past. We've never dealt with wounds from the past. How we get it.

And our dream dies. You know, whatever. And we grieve.

And we grieve a lot in our life. There are many losses. And I started to write this and at first w is about the greatest loss of all which is is death.

But man, beyond that, uh how do you and and a lot of the principles about dealing with grief when someone dies Uh because it it's Oh grief is grief.

Lisa:
How you handle it.

Ron:
But it turns out it turns out that it's not the loss that really decides whether your life goes down a road to hope or a road to hurt, more hurt.

Lisa:
Right.

Ron:
It's the choices you make. What do you do with the loss?

Lisa:
Well and you said that ripped open heart. And I'm so thankful that you didn't allow bitterness to be in there because mom is also a coworker for all of us and you know, just kinda, you know, being able to encourage others and all and I just appreciate you opening up. I'm not gonna throw mom on the floor. I'm gonna I can't do that there. She would she would probably laugh with that, but you know.

Ron:
Good girl.

Lisa:
We're not gonna throw that one. Um my last question.

Ron:
Yes

Lisa:
And thank you so much just for all you've been sharing, Dad. Uh so much that I haven't even known. New new stuff here.

Ron:
So nice we can get acquainted.

Lisa:
No we're gonna have to do another episode just to ask What do you want or hope your legacy will be? What do you want your legacy to be? Legacy is a big word, but Yeah.

Ron:
There's more than we have uh podcast for. But I think um Uh several things come to mind that uh the people I have been with Would understand how much they're worth. That somehow I have treated them in such a way or spoken to them or listened to them in such a way that they have understood their value to the one who created them.

Not so much to me, I'm gone, he isn't. And that that God says we are his workmanship. created in Christ Jesus for good works he prepared in advance for us to do, and that we have been woven together in our mother's womb and were fearfully and wonderfully made. uh that we are made in his image, the uh the Latin Imago Day is a massive thing to think that Uh we have parts of God's characteristics that uh you know to be create to create, to uh to to laugh, to That heart for justice.

Yeah, to care about justice, to uh to to love, uh and to belong, so many things. Well, uh so that would be one thing. Uh I think another uh legacy would be uh that I left joy behind.

Uh you know, we all leave something in the room when uh we bring something in the room with us. And we can bring in stress or we can bring in peace, or we can bring in joy, or we can bring in you know, the you know, just blah. Uh we can come we can we can we can bring uh caring into the room or we can make it all about ourselves.

We want all the attention. I would hope that uh part of what I've left behind is joy. But more important than anything else, uh those are just a couple that I think of.

But uh well, let me just add two. Also that I wish people could understand that we are all created to make a difference. And to be difference makers and that we've been wired by God with some equipment in our personality, in our abilities, whatever, uh not to not to go make a name for ourselves, uh n not to make money.

Uh but to make a difference. And you know what you were raised on uh in your brothers as you left for school and I would say go mad and the next door neighbor thought I had. Um But that meant go make a difference.

That that your friends at school should see a different way they can be. Go m and you've done a great job of make living a go mad. You are a mad woman for sure.

Lisa:
Oh, we had a dad and mom who really lived out a lot of that.

Ron:
Ultimately I would hope that they would see that The Jesus to whom I give my allegiance, whose love captured my heart, whose power to conquer death, has given me so much power to be a different kind of person than I would have been. I know who I was and I know who I've become because of that Life-giving power released in my life and the life of the people I love, that they would want to check out Jesus for themselves. and understand that he is not a religion called Christianity.

He is not a religious people called Christians. He is who he claimed to be, proven by an empty grave, that he is the Savior who loved us enough to die for us. and that he is the King of Kings and that He is the life giver proven by his empty grave.

See only the only one who can can forgive your sins is the one who paid for them. That's only Jesus. He's the only one who even claimed to.

And the only one who can give you eternal life. We all want to go to heaven. The only one who can give you eternal life is the one who proved he had it.

There's only one who proved he had it. Others might have talked about follow my w follow my path and you will go. Who knows?

We don't know. He can't he's there and back And so we know that his he is the way to life. So uh I would hope that people could come to know Jesus who uh again not the religion not the followers not the beliefs not the creed not the meanings not the rules But Jesus himself.

He is who he said he was. He is God's son. No one loves you like Jesus does.

He is the only unlosable love, says the man who lost the other great love of his life. And she didn't choose it, and I didn't choose it. But he will never desert you.

He will never divorce you. He will never disappoint you. And he will never die on you.

It's unlosable love

Lisa:
Oh, that's really I know God has been your anchor throughout your life, Dad, throughout the house. Yeah, and that's powerful. And friend, if you are like, oh my goodness, I want a life that says I have something that is uh uh that gives me hope and is my anchor through all those things we talked about some words from the Bible about all these terrible things that can happen in life and there is only one way uh to be able to God offers that hope and all you need to do is just say so often we uh we choose Lisa's way or Ron's way And if you want to choose God's way today, just talk to him about that and say, God, I'm done going my way, I'm done driving the car and I want you to drive and will you please uh forgive me for all this crud in my life for going my way 'cause my Lisa's way always has consequences.

God's way never has consequences. My way always does. And just hang on to him like he's your only hope and your only rescuer and talk to him and you can have that hope for all of your life.

And Dad, I just wanna say thank you also to you and I know mom's not here, but both of you just made it. um is so real to us about Jesus. That is a huge reason why I chose to believe in Jesus throughout my life.

And that's something each person has to choose. It's not something that I'm promised because uh you chose to begin that relationship or mom, I had to and and then um how many people lived in our house

Ron:
Well, there's Ron, Karen, Lisa, Doug, Brad, and Jesus. There was one that didn't show up on the census.

Lisa:
You you bring him into everyday life and you made him very real and we're open about that and and that's a big reason I think for the next generation to be interested in choosing uh the hope that God offers. So thank you for being here today too, Dad. This was very insightful, more than I thought, and I got one more to I like your pod.

I my pod. Our little pod. And thank you again, Dad, for being here and just Friend, I hope you've been encouraged.

I know I have been. I learned a lot and he's my dad. We talk all the time, but I hope you'll join us again next time.

Lisa:
Join me next time on Thrive in the Mess.