You Are Enough! with Lisa's friend & former NFL cheerleader, Carolyn! | Thrive In The Mess | Hutchcraft Ministries

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. So hey friend, welcome to Thrive in the Mess.

I am really excited I think I say that every time 'cause I'm excited about my guests and my friends who I've had conversations with And I am thrilled to have my friend Carolyn with me today. And we're gonna kind of do a deep dive into how we see ourselves, just identity in a world that is just full of voices screaming about. who I am and who I should be and what I should look like and what I should weigh and what I should wear and how I should talk and just all the things.

I'm just really excited to have a friend who has journeyed through life and has some wonderful perspectives on just identity and who she is. And my friend Carolyn, welcome. Yay, I'm so happy.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here And I want to jump back to like I know uh we're just gonna kinda dive in because I know you were uh you grew up in Texas. I grew up in New Jersey and you are a former Dallas Cowboys cheerleader.

And I am a New York Giants fan, and somehow we are still friends. And a little side note is that my um my dad used to speak for some of the chapels um for the giants. And then they realized some of the guys on the team realized, well, you know, we when when he speaks.

That's not the purpose. Like it's not a good luck charm. It was the you know, a chapel to, you know, encourage them in their spiritual walk in life.

But But they realized they would win when they beat Dallas. But and so they would they would invite him for like, I think all the Dallas chapels for the new giant so that was many years ago but we are still friends yeah it's the beautiful thing about when you can like Go beyond things that can cause division. So at least I think so.

You might walk out now, but I but I want to jump back to that because and maybe some of your stories start sooner. than when you were a young adult. But um just kinda jump in wherever about how you've seen yourself and like I know you now.

I didn't know you then, but I know you've shared strands and pieces of your story from throughout life of how you saw yourself and then even being in a very competitive um industry, for lack of a better word, occupation, you know, even with doing that and the pressures that puts on us with identity also. But jump in wherever you want. You know, teenage, child, right?

One year old, wherever you want.

Carolyn:
Yes. Well, I mean Without going into all the detail of of why I even wanted to try out, I just, you know, being raised in Texas And being from a family that were big Dallas Cowboys fans and the and of course.

Lisa:
You're gonna be like, why were you with her?

Carolyn:
No. And uh fans of the cheerleaders and just that whole cultural thing that, you know, we were in in Texas and um I grew up in dance and singing and performance and pageants and all of these kinds of things from the time I was pretty young. And so long story short, my dream uh became to become a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. I mean, I always wanted to be in performance, but then as I kind of got a little bit older, I was starting to to realize what all they did and just some of the exciting things they got to do and seeing them, you know, on TV and all this kind of thing.

Lisa:
And so can you still do a high kick? You don't have to demonstrate when to do

Carolyn:
You know, that is so funny. I I can do a high kick but I cannot jump up and land in the splits anymore.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness. I can't even imagine.

Carolyn:
Yeah, that that's long gone.

Lisa:
That's that's how many times did you have to do that Was that always a part of every game?

Carolyn:
It was a part of every game because it was kind of like split.

Lisa:
Yes, it was kind of That's a little terrifying to me. I probably blow out like three dips. Oh well. Well we the things we do when we're young, exactly. I could do a low kick for you if you keep going.

Carolyn:
I'm really interrupting your no, it's all good But yeah, so it became my dream and I put literally everything into this. I mean it it bec almost became like an obsession really. Because I was already in dance and all of that.

Like in h you know, all through school and all of that. But, you know, I had kind of set my heart on this goal And I was doing everything I knew to do to achieve this goal. Um, you know, I was in Sulfur Springs, Texas, which is two hours away from Dallas, but every week I would drive over um, you know, on school nights to the Cowboys headquarters and do like their they had these prep classes that you could take, you know.

And I would drive over there two hours one way and do all of that and then drive back and then go to school the next day. I mean, I was serious. I was driven about it.

And you know, I was really strict like on my diet, um, you know, not eating a whole lot actually, and um very you know, every kind of beauty treatment you can think of. I was trying to do, you know, just trying to fit the image of what they would hire. And then of course working on all the things you have to do to become one So I was eighteen, um, 'cause you have to be eighteen to try out.

Okay. Right. And so I actually turned eighteen the day before tryouts.

So you barely I barely squeaked through the door. Um But anyway, I was very, very um laser focused on this is what I want to do, you know. Um, this is, you know, what I have to do, I felt like.

Lisa:
I mean I this is all like in high school then too. Since m excuse me, since you just had turned eighteen. Had you even graduated yet?

Carolyn:
Not even graduated yet. So um then my hometown kind of rallied behind me, which was very I mean when I look back on it, it touches my heart really. Um, but all that to say there was a lot of pressure too. Right. Because I was thinking, okay You know, now I'm I've got the whole community involved.

Lisa:
And again Thanks for the encouragement, but that also is the pressure, right?

Carolyn:
And Texas football, cowboys, all the thing, it's like You know, it's like a religion, honestly, in a lot of ways. Because it's like, you know, everybody knows every stat and every player and everything everything. And it's a big deal.

So Do they quiz you on that part? They do. They do.

That is so funny you asked that. Wow. That was part of the Audition process wasn't just.

Lisa:
I don't know why I'm obsessed with the high kigs. Right. You know, but yeah, wow.

So you also had to like know the information too. Interesting. And um So there is a lot of pressure going into that.

Carolyn:
And it was, but so this is what happened though. Oh no. I know. So there's several rounds, you know, you go through the the preliminaries and then the semifinals and then the finals and so on.

Well so this is over weeks or days? Over a a month's time. A m okay.

Yeah. And so once I I made it all the way to the finals where you're competing against the current um veterans, you know. Oh oh wow.

And that was pressured. You know, and like everybody the next one is more beautiful than the other. I mean it's just like so many like beautiful people where you're just like, is this real?

I mean, you know, everyone's doing the same beauty. Everybody's doing the same thing. Yeah.

Um Everybody's like hyper focused on you know, how you look and your performance and how you come across and just all of these things. So anyway, I made it to the finals but I didn't make it into wow the training camp that year. Well, I was devastated and I but the main thing I was felt horrible about is I felt like I had disappointed my hometown.

Right. And I was a dance teacher back then and I had all these awesome students that were really Oh, they were really excited. And you know, I felt like I had let them down.

And um I felt like I let my family down, my everything. Right. I mean, you know.

And so I from that felt Very um I felt rejected, but I also felt like, you know, I'm not enough. I'm not good enough.

Lisa:
When you know, I didn't make the

Carolyn:
I just don't have what it takes, you know, because I've given everything I know to do and to towards this goal, but I was I didn't make it.

Lisa:
Was that the first time you had that like I'm not enough? I don't know if I can say that. But that was a big one. It was a big one.

Carolyn:
But I think I had struggled with that honestly my whole life. Well. Like always feeling like I've gotta measure up to this right standard that I really never could really measure up to.

Lisa:
And that just kinda was maybe a bigger thing that just kinda made it rise to the surface even more. That's a big wow. So how do you deal with that? Yeah. Not and how did uh like how did you Yeah, so how did everyday life?

Carolyn:
I didn't deal with it very well at that time in my life. So I was raised in church, um, had a Christian family and I'm very thankful for all of that, but I did not have a personal relationship with the Lord at that time. I mean I knew a lot about him And I believed in him, but I didn't really know him.

That had knowledge, but not necessarily. Right, right, right. Okay.

So at this point in time, it was just all about what the world is telling me. Not I wasn't keep you know, tuning in to wha who does the Lord say I am? I wasn't at all.

I mean it was all about what I want to know what they think I am. I just want to make it exactly and you know, taking my cues off of what I'm getting from the world, you know. So fast forward, I graduate from high school, I go to college, I go and I'm a part of the dance team in the college.

Well, so like I'm like, do I Try out again, you know? Yeah. And um, I was very nervous to put myself out there again, but I thought, okay, I'm you know, I'm have had another year of maturity and like whatever.

And I've said to giving a spoiler alert that you are a four percent.

Lisa:
So kinda know you already yeah we know it eventually but it's great to hear all this because those are hard moments like am I going to try again? Like how many times do does anyone walk through life and we're like okay that's it and I give up because I'm not enough. I don't I you know, we just don't feel like we can do this.

There have been even times with like um stepping into wanting to have a podcast and have conversations with people and My husband has been like, Lisa, you're about to quit and you haven't even recorded anything. And but sometimes we hear voices of, I'm not enough. And we have to come back to who God says we are.

And I love how even in the Bible, like God's word talks about, we are made by Him and made for Him. And um, I'm his and uh you know, things like that were were unique and valuable and irreplaceable and priceless. And so okay, but you're not feeling that right now at that point in time.

So you wasn't. You decided.

Carolyn:
But yes.

Lisa:
So I'm in college.

Carolyn:
I decide to try again. And this time I have two friends that I went to college with that we were gonna try out together, which I thought, oh well that's gonna be better because at least I won't be all by myself, you know

Lisa:
And so It depends if you all make it or not.

Carolyn:
Well, I think so this is a key part. Oh no. So we go again or I go again and this was their first time. You're never gonna believe this, but this is the absolute truth My two friends made it and I did not make it again.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

Carolyn:
I know. Oh wow. Yeah.

Lisa:
Oh.

Carolyn:
It was it was like it was definitely and especially I was nineteen at this point. Yeah. Um another kick in the gut.

Oh I just kept thinking so then I started really questioning, of course, like why do I even think that I should even be trying this? Like why? Because I really, really wanted it and thought that I could do it, but it obviously it wasn't happening, you know?

And I'm thinking, okay Um, I felt totally like a failure. I mean, I felt like I was ridiculous. I was like, why then I started getting into this Um just really low, low uh thoughts of myself.

But you know, I've come to realize now, years later, yeah that pride kind of looks different. You know, sometimes pride is when we're super like coming across really arrogant and all of that, but it can also be when we're still completely focused on ourself but it's all like woe is me and I'm so you know Wow. It's like a victim a vic yes, like I mean yes, I know hard things happen and I'm not saying that we don't have to kind of process through that with the Lord, but it was still so self-focused at the time.

It was just so just about me and what I thought and what I wanted and and all of this kind of thing.

Lisa:
So I I quick question, don't lose your thought there, but did you have any uh you know your friends made it, you didn't. Did that affect your relationship with them? Was there any kind of like uh you know, uh we're always telling ourselves, don't compare with each other because comparison just kills us, you know, inside. And I uh again we're uniquely us, but d were you like, oh, they depend you know, was there any Um, just what were the feelings with that? Like, I don't know, like I don't know that you were bitter or uh, you know, just was there anything like that's another little thread there like Yeah, they made it, I did it. Did I suggest it?

Carolyn:
Did I I guess it's right. No, I c I was definitely comparing myself and thinking that I was falling short, I wasn't enough. They were s you know, obviously better and and prettier and more talented and more and all of the things.

I mean it was just very much like a poor me I'm I'm, you know, I'm just feeling very rejected and very I mean, I'm sure you would say to an extent jealousy, but it didn't affect our relationship 'cause They were very gracious and I felt like I tried to be gracious. Oh yeah. I know.

No, we stayed friends and that was fine. But it was definitely a you know, yeah a hard thing, especially at that age. I mean I just felt very like like I actually felt really humiliated is kind of the word.

Kind of like wow. You know, I guess I was really wrong on thinking I could even try this, you know.

Lisa:
Did you get as far that time? No.

Carolyn:
Oh the other thing. So it probably depends year to year. Oh my gosh, I digressed even I so this time I made it one level less.

And so that was another that was a good point. That was another thing that was just like wow. So I had to kinda realize, okay Plan B, you know, at this point.

And really at that what happened is truly where I came to know the unconditional love of the Lord. Because I was sitting here feeling so rejected, so, you know, whatever. And he opened a door for me to move to Branson and become a performer in in a Branson show which was not on my radar WhatsApp I mean you're thinking Dallas Cabo Cheer.

That's a you know right. Well and I was in college down here at TCU and I mean my whole family's from Texas. I mean, you know I I was not thinking at all about Branson, you know.

But I had been hearing about it and that it was like an awesome place for a lot of shows and all kinds of opportunities, but Anyway, uh it was truly, I believe, the Lord that opened the door for that. Wow. And I kind of look back and think he actually picked me up and carried me through that door.

Lisa:
Wow.

Carolyn:
Because I was so low.

Lisa:
And you couldn't even walk through. Well that's That's I I just I really like how you just said that because sometimes we do get to those moments where we're like, I can't do that. Like we've had a rejection, had another rejection, and not just another rejection, but a rejection where someone else had um exception like i that's not a word but like they had been accepted yeah you were it feels like you were rejected.

Right. So that kind of probably stung a little more the second time and And sometimes we can't do that next thing. So it does take some perseverance, but sometimes we just can't do that, literally.

God's the one who gives us strength, you know, to do that. So but again, you weren't kind of like you were sni you've said you weren't I like you believed in God, all the things, but he still even in those low moments he kinda It's like that footprints poem of like God carrying us when we saw the one where like, well, God, you left me at that moment. You abandoned and it actually was when he carried us.

So Wow. That's that's powerful. So he carried you to Branson.

He did.

Carolyn:
He he really did. Because he opened doors that I wasn't even knocking on. I mean, it was just Wow.

Really amazing because Um, once I moved here to Branson and started working in these shows and things, I mean it took a minute to kind of shift gears mentally. Shift gears and kind of but He blessed me so much. I I mean it was the best place that I can imagine for me to be.

And so I kind of put college on hold, you know?

Lisa:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
And I was just like, let's, you know, go for this, see what, you know, all this is all about.

Lisa:
And you got to use your gifts and talents too with go going to Branson. You didn't have to stop No, not at all. But did the thought stop that I'm not enough when you're doing shows? Still because you're still like with other people who are really good and Orion and Well what Where did that take you? Mentally even some of that.

Carolyn:
Well, because in any you know, probably any job I guess really, but especially I think in maybe the entertainment industry and things like that. I mean, you are being contrasted and compared all the time, constantly, for the role, right? Like who's gonna best fit this role?

And at that time in my life, I would just completely rely on people to tell me my worth and value. Am I worth anything or not? Am I worth, you know, investing in or not?

Like am I valuable? Am I worth knowing? Am I worth loving?

Am I le worth anything? It was all based on what I thought people

Lisa:
So when you didn't hear those voices, what was that like?

Carolyn:
And when you did hear those voices, what was that like if anybody gave me a job or gave me affirmation of any kind or whatever It was just like, oh, you know. Yeah. Just like uh, you know, that's what I would feed on for that moment. But as you know, that's so fleeting.

Lisa:
Right.

Carolyn:
I mean, you know, it's like that and then the next uh hour you could be cut down. Right. You know, so in other words, it was very like Roller coasters.

Lisa:
There are roller coasters in Branson. It's not the kind of roller coaster you want to be at. And plus even our own mental doubts, like we can hear incoming that's positive or negative, but then we also have our own well, wait a minute, what they said this, but they didn't say anything about you know what I mean?

I'm just trying to think of like when we hear some affirmation we might still question, but wait, I d uh you know, just because we question ourselves or still have those niggling doubts. Absolutely. You know, from ourselves or others who have put that in there.

So then someone comes along or doesn't say it says something negative or doesn't say anything. How did that roll with you? Besides taking you to the bottom.

Carolyn:
Yeah. Well, I would internalize it and and I would like believe it. Because if they're selling me that It must be true, you know, instead of because at this point I didn't really understand my true identity in Christ.

I just, you know I just again I was kind of reliant on what people would say or do or think, you know, about me and and and I don't think I really knew what to think about myself because, you know, I was just like Really just uh looking to like someone, somebody to tell me, you know? And That's kinda like every audition I would go to or every show or whatever you know, what would people say? What are people thinking?

I mean it was and that's such a vulnerable place to be. Just constantly looking for you know, people to to give you that approval, you know.

Lisa:
Am I enough? Yeah. Am I okay?

Yeah. I so you don't get apart Uh uh how does that like do you just keep going after trying to find that next job, find that next whatever, and are you just like, Okay, I didn't get it and just have to try harder or do does it set you back everywhere? you don't want to try again.

Carolyn:
Definitely. Definitely at times I would, you know, kind of just be so feeling dejected or whatever that, you know, I would I would have different times where, you know, back then I would turn to guys like, you know, whoever I was dating or whatever. And you know That's a whole nother version.

Lisa:
That's a whole nother getting affirmation and am I good enough? Am I or That's a great place to turn when you're looking at gosh. I mean not no I'm not judging though I'm just saying it's like but that's what we do as humans. We go to other people with that. So how did that work out for you looking at, you know, guys for that affirmation?

Carolyn:
Oh well, I mean it was it was not a good idea. Right because um, you know It led to being promiscuous. I mean, you know, it wasn't like I was all over the town or anything, but I mean it was definitely trying to find, you know that love and approval some way or another.

Lisa:
It's a natural response to looking for I I I've heard um uh my dad has even talked about looking for love in all the wrong places. But it's not just love, it's that affirmation. Right.

Because that is that feels like love to us. We want to be accepted. We want to feel like we're enough.

Like that is a big thing. I really like how that's kind of come to the forefront in some conversations nowadays about I don't feel enough, but we are enough just and honestly when we don't feel enough when we choose to look to God, he gives us that affirmation, you are because I made you uniquely you. And And that is where our value comes from.

And so we are enough because we're valuable. And then other voices just We kinda did you I like for me, sometimes there's just voices and just the chaos and the screaming in our world of all the things. Um, do you ever did you have to kind of say, Okay, I'm gonna not listen to this voice?

Or was it a while till you got to that? Does that make sense? Like it does, yes.

Like were you just okay. I because that's exhausting in a way too.

Carolyn:
Mm-hmm. It is. Well so basically in Branson Branson, you know, it it's a more Christian environment overall. I mean as far as like a lot of the shows have gospel music as part of the show and like there's kind of like family friendly and and that kind of thing. And every once in a while, um, I would go to church in Branson and I would maybe talk with a friend that was a believer and I started getting more kind of just tuning my ear back toward the Lord because again I was raised in church you know But aga I didn't have a personal relationship with him yet.

Lisa:
But it was like he was And going to church doesn't that doesn't mean we have a personal relationship either, right? A lot of people have that in yeah, yeah.

Carolyn:
Yes. But I was like hearing more of the word though and I was hearing his truth still and those are like I believe seeds being planted, you know. And so it was kind of like I was starting to realize There is more.

I'm not exactly sure how to tap into that, but I know there's gotta be more than just all of this stuff that I'm trying to achieve and be. You know, and um because as you know, when you're going for those kind of things, you know, even if you get it, it's not a lasting and a fulfilling, you know peace, you still have that God-shaped void, you know, in you, looking for really for him to feel. But I didn't really understand that quite yet.

So anyway, it was kind of an interesting time because I did recognize though that I believed that he had gotten me there. I mean, I was very thankful, knowing I really believed this was kind of like a a God thing, you know, yeah, to even give me this opportunity. So I did that for five years.

Lisa:
Oh wow.

Carolyn:
Okay. And I kinda just thought, you know what? I'm gonna try one more time.

Well for the whole cheerleader thing because I never let that completely die. I always kinda had that I gotta try one more time. This and this is it.

This is definitely it. If I don't make it this time, it's just not meant to be.

Lisa:
You really felt like you would let it go.

Carolyn:
I did, because I was like Yeah, it's definitely a no. A triple no. Three structuralized. That's right. Three structure.

But you know, at this point, you know, I was twenty-four. Um, is that right? Something like that.

Twenty-four. And uh 19, five years, yeah, somewhere with a side. And had grown so much just by, you know Right.

Doing working on my own, you know, living kind of away from my everything I knew and kind of just

Lisa:
The Lord had grown. A lot more independent. Anyone who does that go off to college or uh yeah.

Carolyn:
Experience.

Lisa:
Like stage experience.

Carolyn:
All the things. Yeah. So this time I didn't tell a soul.

Lisa:
I'm like, I'm not telling anybody, not telling my town. Not telling my college friends. Oh gosh, no. What did really no one know?

Carolyn:
No, not even my parents. I didn't tell anybody. Because I was like, this is like it. And if I don't make it, no one has to know.

Lisa:
How long did you have to keep that like quiet? When you like are we talking months or about a month. So not too long, but Yeah.

Carolyn:
Okay. So but As we already know, spoiler I already ruined it at the beginning. No. No, but I actually made it this time. Wow. And I honestly couldn't believe it.

Lisa:
I was like, is this real? Right, right.

Carolyn:
You know, because um I don't know. I just thought, okay Okay, I guess it really is meant to be. And so uh that began that the whole journey of of being a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader and It was an awesome experience.

I mean, you know, the most awesome things were being able to just travel, I mean, all over the world. And um It was just it was an a amazing experience. However, if if anybody's watched the TV shows, I don't know if you have, there's two T V shows about the cheerleaders, you know, on Netflix.

Okay. Um well They're great, the shows and everything. But you can see it's it's very hard.

Lisa:
I mean as far as like Well even the comparison, like even the first time around you said you weren't eating Right. I you know, eating very little. And then even Did you stop comparing?

Like once you're on the team, do you stop comparing? Does that get worse? Like do they are there people constantly watching how you do things?

Can you lose your spot. Yes. Even the fact that the veterans, you said you're going up against them, so are they like having to do this every year?

Yes. Like you're never locked in. It seems pretty Just a lot of uh you you traded one kind of pressure of like, yeah, go for it to I'm sure there were different pressures, like I'd I'd fun experiences, but also just kinda whatever you want to, you know, stay on that, you know, like what did it put you in a good headspace in a way?

You know.

Carolyn:
You know, I would say a lot of the time I was not in a good headspace because I did feel like I was under a lot of pressure and under a lot of scrutiny. Right. Um And I feel like that I knew that going in because you know it's very it's very tough.

They're going to give you a lot of critiques. Daily. Right.

You know, you have a you have a standard where you're weighing in every day. Oh my goodness. Wow.

Lisa:
Like I weigh myself every day, but that's me. Right. We myself and I. Yeah. Yeah.

Carolyn:
And you know, our weight would be Posted for all to see.

Lisa:
Yeah, that's a lot of pressure for any person. But like especially being female and then you know, yeah.

Carolyn:
And there'd be like, you know, weight warning, you know Whatever. Oh yeah. I mean, so there was all of that.

And then um, you know, it was you're very scrutinized. I mean, kind of with a fine tooth comb for everything. But I did know that going into it.

Lisa:
Right.

Carolyn:
And and I knew what you were signing up for. I knew what I was signing up for. I knew that it was very, very strict.

And You know, they're protecting their brand. I mean, they have a very high standard of what they're doing and they that's kind of, you know, and it's not A ministry. I mean this is you know, you're you're you're doing a job for the NFL and for the cowboys and they know tell you right up front what they're looking for and what's expected of you.

Lisa:
Tough standards, right? High standards and right. And all of that But it really in, day out.

Yeah. Yeah. It was it I like yes, great experiences, but that s almost seems exhausting because it's not just you kinda checking in with yourself every day.

Like how am I doing every day? You know, where am I at with you know, just I d I kind of do that. Like where am I at today?

How am I feeling? What am I think you know, whatever. And um but that's a lot of external uh pressure of how are you doing today?

Literally with like a weight warning and um staying up to snuff, keeping, you know Uh being able to do all the things and show up and smile and you know, all the all of that and probably know the routines and the uh you know, but How do you withstand that?

Carolyn:
And you know You know, I I was just thinking, I think I was just And maybe you didn't. I didn't Yeah. Well I was so driven by trying to be enough. Like it's almost like I visualize, you know, kind of like those cartoons where they're dangling the carrot. Right. You know what I mean? And you're just

Lisa:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
Just doing anything and everything you can to try to get that carrot because you're like, that's what your goal is and that's what you think you need to achieve and I will do whatever it takes. Right.

Lisa:
Basically. Right

Carolyn:
And you know, I did a lot of unhealthy things. Like I would run and not drink any water. Like I would run in the heat.

and not drink any water to you know, to make weight and things like that. Or I would take diuretics and all these things that are just like now, especially years later, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so unhealthy. Right.

But, you know I was willing to do it.

Lisa:
And how many things do we do like that in life? Because we want that. Yeah.

Right. Okay. So Fast forward a little bit in your journey.

Um, you were overseas and something happened while you were there.

Carolyn:
Yes. So I got really sick. They were thinking it was an appendicitis.

And they had to careflight me um over to Rammstein Air Force Base in Germany. And I was in Budapest, Hungary at the time. Wow.

So with the team and all the time. And um we were doing USO tours, um shows for the military. And so um Anyway, I ended up fine.

I mean I w made it through it, but when I was recovering in the hospital I was all by myself because the team was off finishing out the tour.

Lisa:
Right.

Carolyn:
And um I was over here in Germany, you know, by myself, my whole family. Of course everybody's back in Texas. And um and at the time I was engaged to my current husband now, Jared.

First and current no. Yeah. First and only, but right. Um anyway.

And so while I was in the hospital, I had a lot of time to think and it really was a wake up call. You know, when you have one of those I mean, I don't really know how near death I I really was, but it felt like it at the time.

Lisa:
Well, they I mean, took you to the hospital.

Carolyn:
Yeah, we can pass from that. So anyway, I had a lot of time and I wrote out um some things that I felt like I really wanted to focus on from here on out that were more important, you know?

Lisa:
And it was really

Carolyn:
just two things when it came down to it, it was I want to follow God and I want to serve him. And number two, I want to marry Jared. Wow.

Lisa:
And um Yeah. And so sometimes like it seems like God wants to get our attention. Yeah.

And it might be dramatic like a hospital room, but it might be just sidelining it literally where we have to get away from everything else. Like you were with a group, traveling with a group, probably having a roommate, you know, the tra all the things and but sometimes the daily life we just um We don't hear. You know, we need to I to be able to re-evalu it sometimes it takes something, that medical emergency or something, to be able to sit back and just kind of re-evaluate and Yeah.

Wow.

Carolyn:
And one little side note, when I was in the hospital they did this like MRI thing. Yeah. And um they couldn't even get a good ha read on me because they said I didn't have enough body fat.

That's not the case today, but I was so skinny. Like I had I had such low body fat Wow. That they I mean, so it just kind of shows you like I was just I mean, I was barely eating at all.

I mean, it was just I was just so focused on trying to fit the mold.

Lisa:
and everything.

Carolyn:
So anyway, made it back home and um you know, I I was just had a whole different perspective. And so I decided, you know, not to try out again Wanted to finish strong, but I was ready to move on. Right.

I was ready to move on. And so we did, and we got married. Jared and I got married.

You got one of those done.

Lisa:
So one of the two things.

Carolyn:
Yes. And now how about the other thing? Yeah. So it didn't take long and I we started I told him I said I really want us to start going to church. You know, let's do that And so we started going to a church in Dallas and it was really cool because we heard Lee Strobel, you remember him or know him who he is.

Lisa:
And he was a um former atheist who started to kind of, I think his journey began like dis trying to disprove. Yep. Um God's existence.

Yes. And he actually found more proof of God's existence. Exactly.

And then chose to begin a relationship with Jesus through all of that, you know, trying to disprove that. So so you got to hear him at that church then. Wow.

I did.

Carolyn:
And then it made a huge impact on them both of us. Wow. And it really made us think you know, and it really made us analyze like where are we really with all of this, you know? And um so then fast forward a little bit and we had our first child, Connor. Well, he definitely God used our first child as the catalyst to like really get our attention.

Lisa:
God'll do that too. Yeah. All of a sudden there's another

Carolyn:
person in the mix and yeah, yeah. It's like and we both both of us, Jared and I both realized, you know We need help. We need help raising this child.

We want him to be raised in the right way. And we were really still honestly living for ourselves and not really for God. And it was causing some tension too because once you have a child, then you know you have this precious baby you're trying to raise with different you know, I'm coming at it my way, he's coming at it his way, we're disagreeing.

You know, we needed help.

Lisa:
That's a mess. And we're talking about like Thrive in the mess and some hope in the mess and that's messy, right.

Carolyn:
It was very messy and we both loved him so much But we were realizing we really need help, we need guidance, we need, you know, strength, we need We realized within that we were not hitting the mark.

Lisa:
Right, well.

Carolyn:
So that is when we started um Going to church and really dedicating and really looking into okay, what does this really mean to give complete surrender of our lives? you know, we want to know Jesus personally. We want to surrender everything um to him. We want to stop living for ourselves. I'm gonna like it emotional.

Lisa:
Well, and while you're getting emotional, the whole like uh you know, we often talk about sin, that middle letter I is what that is. Like sin is uh I just when we choose to live life our way, my way, Lisa's way, instead of God's way. And you guys were living at Carolyn's way and Jared's way.

And, you know, sometimes we might come at it like as a couple, but you know, it still is us choosing our way versus God's way. And so that is a Beautiful way to talk about that, you know, of what you were saying of we didn't want to do that. Because our way does not it takes us to a place a lot of times that has more consequences or like you were saying, okay, we had a child.

You know, there's another life in the mix now and where we need help with that, right? Oh my goodness. So how did that all play out, you know, you're like, okay.

So we got baptized together.

Carolyn:
Oh wow. And we we made a commitment. Um to follow Christ and to surrender our life to him. And so it changed everything.

Lisa:
I mean it was a now this of course It's okay to get emotional because that that's a big thing because that gave you hope in the mess. It's in. Yeah.

Carolyn:
And of course it's a process, a sanctification process. It's not like as soon as we came out of the water, then all of a sudden we're just I mean, we were a new creation in Christ, but yet now we have to walk it out and you know let him prune us and you know test us in the fire and we're always growing right always growing and learning

Lisa:
But life isn't perfect. No. That's why we're talking about messes because life is not perfect. It never will be. But but we don't walk through it alone. Like even hearing your story and some of the hope it gives and

Carolyn:
all of that and Yeah, because we were s d when Jared and I met and married, we were so in love and everything like that. But yeah, when hard things start hitting Right. You know, like how do we raise this child? Like how do we run this business? Um, how do I, you know, keep I was I you know, went back to work as a performer and I had really crazy hours and I mean there was lots of

Lisa:
stuff. Right. Right.

Carolyn:
And again juggling. Yeah. And at the end of the day we were still really looking out for number one. We weren't really looking at God, what do you want? And then also being like thinking about the other more than ourselves.

Lisa:
You know, I mean maybe It was life together but still taking care of your needs.

Carolyn:
Exactly. Yeah. I don't think we knew even that we were doing that really as much as far as like 'Cause you're thinking, Oh, of course I I love him, but it yeah, this is what I want.

Lisa:
Right.

Carolyn:
And it's not that you you know, you have to give up everything you want, but it was just like there was no understanding at that point yet of what it really looks like to be surrendered to Christ, like really listening to Him, like letting Him guide us and direct us to like you know, love each other well. It was still a very, like you said, in the middle of sin, there's that I, you know, is very self-centered, you know. And um so When we did come up out of the water and you know, the main thing that was changed was that. It was like me we may not know exactly how to walk that out quite yet, but we know that's what we want and that's what we're choosing.

Lisa:
We're choosing that. You know. How did all of this so you enter marriage and you still have some voices of I'm not enough Um, I like there's marriage, there's being a mom.

I know um in I you know, you have parent the voices of parents and then You and I I really got to know each other more after I lost my mom, after you lost your dad tragically. And I you know, those voices of when other people have spoken into our lives and things we're not enough and just how that plays into who we are and identity. Uh just what are some of your thoughts on some of that, you know, the journey through life?

Because now you have such a You literally encourage others with their with their identity. But it's also a daily choice to see. I know I see that with things that you share and that we've talked of about of just uh it's a choice each day, an intentional choice to choose to know how valuable we are because of who God made us to be and that we are enough.

But what are some of the you know, those are different situations and voices of you know, wife, mom, daughter and yeah, you know, and other things like even working for an employee or something. Yes, yes.

Carolyn:
Well, you know how I said I was always looking for people to tell me who I am and if I'm worth anything and all of that. Um, so once I surrendered my life to the the Lord and really became to know him and everything, it's really through the word It's like then when I started studying the word and knowing what he said in his love letter to us, the word is where I really had the transformation.

Lisa:
Wow.

Carolyn:
Because um I didn't even really know. I mean, even though I was raised up in church, um, I didn't know a lot of the word. And I for sure wasn't studying it and reading it myself or listening to it or any of that.

for a lot of my life. Yeah. Um I knew bits and pieces and things but now it had come alive to me You know.

So like then when I would read it, I'd be like, Oh my gosh, that's just for me. Yeah. You know, I needed to hear that.

Lisa:
But we are for it and I feel like it's for me too. And that's the beauty of it exactly. And you can read it at different times and it hits you different times.

Like I literally will even put like a little date sometimes. Yes. Like you know, and I'll be like, Oh, you know what?

That wasn't long after my mom died or that was when my uh not long after I became a mom, you know, and and so I look back at that, but then you read it differently different times. in your life. You know, oh, I was newly married then and or now I'm, you know, two decades into being married.

You know what I mean? Oh yeah, it's living. Wow.

It's a living word. And it gives you life because you have such a joy And are so radiant of because you do know you're enough. And that's the beautiful thing.

And even if we sometimes hear those little niggling lies, you know, I keep m coming back to that because it's not always a big lie that's loud. It is that quiet little but you're not a I d like are we ever really yelled at in our world of you're not enough? Maybe some people are, you know, but it's those little things that are in our mind that and when we kind of are looking at, you know what God says about who we are, it does change.

Yeah. That so much. So wow.

So you're getting into, you know, God's word and you're like, okay, that's me. That's for me. That's who I am.

And Uh did you ever feel like uh you know you get married and sometimes we're like, okay, he's my go-to for my affirmation.

Carolyn:
Right.

Lisa:
You know, also and I know I've thought about that sometimes. times with Rick, he he he is not my go-to for all the things. He's an amazing encourager.

Like he's my rock, my person, you know. But really God is the one I have to go to for that because he is my anchor. Rick won't even always be there, you know, someday.

I might not always be there for him someday, you know, with you know, we don't know how long we're we're not promised tomorrow. You know, so not to be morbid, but like I did learn that after my mom, you know, even of our encouraging people might not always be there, but you know, God is, you know. So So yeah, fast forward to any other, you know, enoughs or not enoughs or so I thought about the main scripture that just

Carolyn:
kind of like blew my mind and transformed me was uh Psalm 139.

Lisa:
Oh oh my goodness I think I wrote that down here.

Carolyn:
Well I brought I opened it up so the whole thing is amazing. And yeah, you know, a lot of people may have heard the verse about from that that says you are fearfully and wonderfully made. I mean that's one of many, many things in this passage or in this psalm that is amazing, but I I didn't know this or hear this or read this until l you know, I was a mom I mean I hadn't heard any of this, right?

Lisa:
That's a lot of life to not know that. Right, right.

Carolyn:
I did not know that. I mean, in my growing up and experiences in the show biz world or whatever um I was always thinking I'm not I I would never say I was fearfully and wonderfully made because here's what's wrong with me. This, this, this, this and this and you know And you hit kinda like for some people

Lisa:
uh making it into a an occupation where it's very uh like you have to have physical talent and certain things and stuff Um, some people think, oh, this person has it all made because they do whatever. Right. They invented this, they made this.

they got this accomplishment, but you still didn't know that truth of fearfully, wonderfully made and still looking around for that. validate me kind of in a way. Like who do you say I am?

Exactly. And then all of a sudden you know what God says you are. So how did that change life?

Like that's a very practical tip even of like Reading that kind of truth and taking that in, but how did that change life as a mom and Oh my gosh, well it just

Carolyn:
it just blew my mind because I just for you just in general.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
It just made me feel like, okay, the Lord God Almighty created me and all of us, but and this is what he says Right. And he has a purpose so much bigger and more, you know, important than looking a certain way. I mean it's I mean, his ways are so much higher than our ways and you know, the whole psalm talking about how he knows, you know, our our going and our coming and all these things, he he so cares about us, like And I'm just thinking, but God, you know, I again, my all the things that I think negatively about myself, but this, but that, but this, but that And you know, you but you read that enough times and you just feel how much he loves you and how he created you. He he knit you together in your mother's womb

Lisa:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
I mean it's like it's very, very powerful once you start to actually that goes from here to here because you're accepting that and realizing Oh wow. You know, it puts everything in perspective really quickly. I mean, once you get it, because you're like, okay.

I may not be the right fit for this job or this role or whatever it may be, but that doesn't change my identity. Right? Right.

I mean and he has a plan. I mean I look back over my life and I just think about how he he directed my steps even when I didn't even really know him that personally yet. I mean I believed in him But I didn't even and he was still, you know, making a way for me.

He carried me through the door.

Lisa:
I mean And there's a difference with the believing like, sure, you're God, you know, fine, and uh, but then really internalizing that because literally like you said, the God of Almighty, but like the God who may you know, the universe and then like he cares about me. And you know, one of the verses I think of is he literally knows the number of hairs on our head. Yes.

Like if anyone knows that it would be me or you because we do our hair each day. You know what I mean? Well I try to with naturally curly hair, but I really don't care.

It just kinda wants to do what it does. Um, but the you know, I don't know how many hairs. Like I literally when I wash my hair, I've you know, there's gonna be hair that falls out.

Am I gonna be like, okay, minus 14 strands, you know No, but God knows that. Like He cares that much about me and about you. Like if that doesn't scream I love you and I care for you and identity of who we are Okay, but now you're uh you're m you know, you're um at this stage in life when you hear doubts, like do you still hear that?

Or is life just okay, I never hear, I'm not enough? And what do you do with those just like a practical something to encourage someone today in that? You know.

Yeah, because Where you don't end up in the under the covers with the Hagen does like, okay, I'm not good enough. You know what I mean?

Carolyn:
I do, because it is a a continual bombardment from the world. I mean, we're not gonna get away from that as far as voices everywhere. They are Um, so that's gonna be something that for the rest of my life I'm gonna be, you know, putting my armor on and I'm going to be deflecting those fiery darts that are coming from the enemy trying to you know, take me down and and lies and, you know, being deceived into thinking that, you know, well maybe I maybe I read that wrong or maybe God really doesn't feel that way or whatever. Um For me, this is very simple, but whenever I start to get into a doubt about something like that, then I I really know deep down is truth, but I'm starting to get Fuzzy because I'm listening maybe too many voices of the world or whatever.

Lisa:
It's just so easy. Like social media, just all the things, TV uh what whatever it is, like any program. Oh yeah. It movies, show whatever, it just it is of okay, and even the comparison, like not choosing not to do that. Absolutely. But

Carolyn:
So what I do, and I do it often, is um I have my most favorite thing is to worship. So I will go And you do sing. You sing beautifully. Yes. Thank you.

Lisa:
Love your singing. Thank you.

Carolyn:
So I will go and I will turn on the worship music. And what does that mean like when you mean worship music? music what yeah so any song that is praising God, that is talking about God, that is lifting up the name of Jesus, that is proclaiming his truth Um, because if I get into that time of just putting my eyes on him, back on him, worshiping him and what's so amazing about him, I'm probably gonna get emotional again, but I really need to keep two shit here.

Lisa:
Here's a napkin.

Carolyn:
Yes. When I um This just kind of shows to me the heart of our father is that when I turn my eyes on him and I begin to worship him. Yeah Expressing my love to him. He doesn't just take it all and not give anything back. It's like we start to worship him and then he just can't help but to just love us back.

Lisa:
Wow.

Carolyn:
And so it's like in that moment, you know, I'm like, oh my goodness, I feel his presence. I feel his love. I feel him feeling my cut back up. You know, and it's like a okay You were getting off and getting distracted into these voices of the world, but what does your father say? Right.

Lisa:
You know? So that's powerful. I mean.

And I also want to throw out there's something that has helped me on days when I feel lower. I I I when I'm not feeling enough. I literally will um Try to think of is someone else who needs encouragement.

Yes. Because and you do that. You are a big encourager.

Look, you're an awesome encourager. We're not comparing. Here we'll just like I fish bumps that we both together I find this book.

Um, but I see you do that with other people and that is powerful because when we might not feel like that enough, you know, just pouring into someone else and it takes the attention off us, whether you're listening to worship music and it's taking your attention off you and looking at you know, a God instead and or looking at someone else who really might be having a tough time and getting the attention off me really yes kind of helped. You even referred earlier like um I don't know if it exactly fit but like the pride, you know, and sometimes like we need to lean into a hard feeling but just not stay there. Exactly.

And really try to, you know, put that focus somewhere else. I know we could talk for a million hours, but I do want to uh just ask one final question of what would you tell 18-year-old Carolyn? about identity.

Wow, that's a great question. And anyone else, like walking through like there's a lot of takeaways of, you know, ways to um you know, really like looking to God for who made us and even uh you know, the people in your world, uh, you know, your husband being encouraging, whatever. But Uh what would you what would you tell someone who's like, I am just you don't know me.

You might be enough Carolyn, you might be a l enough Lisa, but really anyone is because of who God is. Like he's a part of this equation, you know, of who we are.

Carolyn:
Yeah. You know, I would tell them that the God of the universe, the God that created all. Number one, he's love.

He is love. And he loves them so dearly. Like his, you know precious child and he sent his son to die for them and he wants them to be Close.

He wants to love them closely, personally. He wants to hide you under his wings. You were fearfully and wonderfully made.

You know, he knew you before the foundations of the earth. I mean, he knew and saw and knit you together in your mother's womb. He has a plan for you, you know, to prosper you, not to harm you.

He sings over you, like it says in Zephaniah three seventeen. One of my favorites? Yes.

You know, just you can think about the person you might love the most. God loves you Ten million times more than that. Right.

And he wants to know you personally and he has a plan and for you and you are valuable. And uh he's Got so much for you, and the things of this world are fleeting, and he'll walk you through it all. He'll never leave you, he'll never forsake you.

Um and he'll carry you through when you need to be carried and and you are enough because he made you. And And he he loves you. And so any of these voices that are trying to come and and tell you any different.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Carolyn:
It's just not true. And he wants to show you that. He wants you to know that that you know that you know that you know that that's the truth And that he he wants to know you and be with you forever.

Not just here on this earth, but then forever in heaven. And and he has the an incredible plan and future for you. So uh look to him and and he'll give you the God confidence to keep going and believing and trusting in him and Um just realize that through him you are more than enough.

Lisa:
Wow. Very powerful. And as I was hearing you, a lot of the a lot of what you were saying are directly directly from God's word.

And they are some of those powerful encouraging words. And I couldn't help but think of it almost feels like you're going back and giving 18-year-old Carolyn a hug and saying all of that to her. Yeah.

And a friend, I really hope that you've been encouraged by now I'm gonna get emotional, by Carolyn's story because you are enough. because of who God made you to be and how much he loves you everything that Carolyn just said so beautifully and Uh and I do I appreciate you even sharing, you know, it's not going to church that brought this about, you know, you had some knowledge, had knowledge. And Maybe you have some knowledge in your head about who God is or who Jesus is, but it took Carolyn picking choosing one day and me choosing one day, saying, I believe that in my heart.

And if you want that relationship with Jesus today and that hope that he gives, you can choose that today and just call out to him and talk with him about wanting to begin that relationship with him and choosing to go his way instead of our own way because our way pretty much stinks, you know, leaves Ugh, but thank you for tuning in today. Really hope this has been an encouragement to you. And I hope you'll join us next time on Thrive in the Mess.