We’re Still Here: Two Gen Z Stories of Suic*dal Struggle & Hope | Thrive In The Mess | Hutchcraft Ministries

Lisa:
Welcome to Thrive in the Mess. I'm your host, Lisa Hutchcraft Whitmer. We are thrilled to have you join us today.

We are going to do a deep dive into a topic that a lot of people don't always talk about, and it is a very real thing in our world that all ages deal with. And I have two wonderful young people I know joining me today And we are hoping this will be something where we don't just have to walk through surviving, but where people can feel like they can actually thrive. And we're talking about a nussy topic today, about um the option of considering taking your own life.

suicide and uh how to choose to live instead. And I have Joseph who is from Am I gonna say it right? Guyana?

Yes, correct. And the UK and uh and then my friend Kyle from South Africa. Can you tell us where in South Africa?

Kyle:
Uh Johannesburg. I am from Johannesburg, South Africa Oh yeah, we're gonna be a little bit more.

Lisa:
And there's several places in South Africa. There's like Pretoria and like uh Cape Town.

Kyle:
Yeah, everybody knows either Johannesburg or Cape Town. But we just basically call it Joe Burger local.

Lisa:
Joe Jog. Joburg?

Kyle:
If you're like really, really local, we'll say Josie.

Lisa:
Really? I haven't heard that. Wow, I love that.

Well, I am really thankful for both of you because I'm thankful you are alive. You each made an intentional choice to uh to be alive and not take your own life. And I really appreciate you.

uh talking about this joseph I know on your social media you talk quite a bit and you wear clothes not today but you wear clothes where About like reasons to be alive, like on the back of your sweatshirt and different th wait, but your hat shows your I got the hat.

Joseph:
It's it says stay here.

Lisa:
Stay here. Ah, so you are really an advocate for this because you walked through this and you also do like spoken words and things like that and talk with people about choosing choosing life. So I'm just we're just gonna jump in to uh just kind of we all have messy stories. Life isn't perfect. Um who wants to kind of jump in and give some of what led you to a point of, okay, life isn't worth living anymore.

Joseph:
Um I I I guess also. Um It's kind of a short form of my story. Uh uh when I was uh uh sixteen, I was doing uh like in England, uh we call it G C S exams.

And I just was watching the wrong stuff, a lot of negative stuff on YouTube at a time. And what happened was I was still a a period of a few months and next thing I knew I was getting thoughts. And I didn't know what kind of thoughts and they actually were.

And so they got heavier and a lot darker. Um, 'cause prior to that I was just a navigating school and as a lot uh young people do with anxiety and stuff like that Um, but then and there is a moment where because I was uh watching so much of that plus the pressure of anxiety of i exams plus like word from all these different struggles It turns out I was actually battling a suicide ideations and um it was places, not necessarily words at a time, just places, sadly, but people have high a percentage of you know taking their own life.

Lisa:
We're talking about places. When you're talking about suicidal ideation, places where you're like, I might choose to take my life there.

Joseph:
Okay. Yeah. So like uh I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna uh list them, but um there's whole sorts of stats about certain countries and stuff like that because of culture.

Um so it it really started when I was uh sixteen. And then throughout my a later teens it was a mainly my toss with anxiety. Children get more exams and then uh uni or college.

Um and it led to a point where I was not harming myself physically, but I I would say I was harming uh myself emotionally with constant like negativity and talk and all that stuff.

Lisa:
Where was all that coming from? You mentioned music.

Joseph:
Yeah.

Lisa:
So was there kinda like dark music or I'm imagining this isn't like happy music.

Joseph:
I mean it would be highly interesting if it was happy music.

Lisa:
Right, right.

Joseph:
Um a lot of it was from again, just It was like me doing my a research. Like occasionally everybody has to a Google search around the floor or a place or something.

Lisa:
Right.

Joseph:
And I did um Top ten uh places, like i interesting places to travel and it lists some of these uh places. So I would uh read more about it. I would research because I was interested. And then it was a combination of YouTube uh videos and then if you add music behind YouTube uh videos, so love the music was heavy and dark.

Lisa:
So this is a choice. We're gonna kinda talk also about some of the choices that can actually not lead to this. Like these are choices leading to Yeah, yeah.

Beginning the thoughts of like wanting to choose to take your life. So the music, even YouTube videos And the and then external pressure too. You're talking about like exams and anxiety and just struggling life.

Joseph:
So Yeah, it's uh it's I'll say with my uh uh generation we're uh surrounded by a lot of technology. So it can be very overly stimulating with just information. Right.

And Oftentick, I mean a majority of a majority love music, so it's just ingrained in us. Like if you go out in uh London, England, um, you'll see most people on and the trains with headphones on So it and they're not really speaking but they're a lot of time and they're trying to disconnect from life. Even for a few minutes going to or from work.

But music was a big uh part of it, yeah.

Lisa:
Wow, interesting. Well, and I want to hold that thought because I want to know you're still here and alive hearing Munchstone and encouraging other people. So we're gonna Jump back to that. Kyle, can you just kinda walk us through some of your journey with this?

Kyle:
Oh goodness. I mean hearing a little bit from Joseph has kinda also got me a bit of an emotional state. I'm typically someone who has my emotions quite numbed out just because of I mean I call it a bit of a trauma response.

It's like you can only be sad and cry so many times and so it's just like, okay, well you just kinda stop. It just gets to the point where like okay, there's just like nothing left in anymore. Um but yeah so I grew up in not the best circumstances.

Uh family life was quite hard. I'd say it was it was okay when I was much, much much younger Um, my family all like me, my cousins, aunt and uncle, we all lived in like one household that sort of my grandparents ran. Um and then things just got worse and worse and worse and worse to the point where I mean the family split up, the conflict was really bad.

Um we s my mother and I still lived with my grandparents as well as my uncle. Um was a bit of a drug addict. So it was literally and oh my gosh I can't be I'm saying this on a podcast but I'm gonna be real.

Lisa:
You know what? It's authentic and real because people don't talk about this. And we I hope that your stories bring hope to someone else who literally might be wondering, can I make it through one more day?

Yeah. Or maybe you know someone. who might not make it through one more day.

Yeah. So thank you for going there. Yes.

Kyle:
It was a case of like, I mean, there was just so much enough. Okay, so I mean, even as a kid I was just not fitting in at school. I I mean I grew up in a household full of like strong women being like, you know, my grandmother, my mother, I would say the men in the family are a little bit passive.

Um and for that reason I mean I picked up my mannerisms from them. I mean all these always tell me that I'm a bit of a drama queen. Which yeah was kinda true looking back.

Um and I mean some of the things that you know she would correct me on was absolutely true. Like I used to talk with my hands and you'd say don't talk with your hands. It's not like you know, manly, it's a bit feminine.

And that's that's so true.

Lisa:
I talked to my hands when I grew up in New Jersey. I like gesture with things that I claim somebody who talked with my hands here.

Kyle:
Oh yeah. But it was a case, I mean, so what that translated into school is people would just call you so many name. You would stab pack.

is it was really hard for me to make friends. So in primary school, primary school is pretty much first through seventh grade. I literally struggled to make friends so many times.

It was a case of like there were the bunch of guys that I had friends and if you're one of those friends, I apologize, I'm just gonna be real Um, it was a case of like I used to carry money every day, which was not very rigg like regular for a lot of other people. They would get like a lunch box and juice box, you name it, but I carried money. So I would buy from the tuck shop, which is, you know, where we get our snacks and food and everything.

But it was a case of if I didn't buy like food and snacks for the guys I was hanging out with that day, they would totally leave me. They would just like leave me stranded.

Lisa:
Conditional. So like great.

Kyle:
Yeah, I had like these spots around the school that I would like chill. Uh, or like these people that kinda would be like my backup, but even then it's like I really feel like I fet like I fit in.

Lisa:
Did you panic if you didn't have money? 'Cause like that was a part of these relationships in a way.

Kyle:
It was just a it was more of like, you know, looking back and I wasn't really conscious of it or even able, I didn't have the courage or the boldness to stand out. It was like I was being bullied consistently.

Lisa:
Right. Trying to just make it through and and sometimes we think it's normal what we're surviving.

Kyle:
Exactly. I mean people would even like threaten you and be like, you know, sharing is caring and if you don't share you don't care. Oh like couple ways.

Lisa:
You like orange are you sharing?

Kyle:
Exactly. What do you g what do you have to offer?

Lisa:
Speaking of there are goodies here when we talk about hard things versus chocolate.

Kyle:
Tempt to it right now, but let's let's do it. But yeah, so I used to get called out of names and really fit in. It was really hard.

But then okay, there's that happening at school, which is sorta supposed to be your escape. Then you come back home, there is fighting, screaming, physical and verbal abuse consistently. It was a case of like if you would get something nice, like I don't know, I'm gonna use a random example.

Let's say my mother would get me like an Xbox for Christmas and I know she would make a lot of sacrifices to get to that point. Hey, you know, I'm buying you an Xbox for Christmas or whatever, that kind of thing. Um, it wasn't very long after that that we'd end up at the pawn shop.

And then you know we'll be a constant re like with no choice of your own. Yeah, no. Yeah, so all the nice things would disappear not too long after just because there's a lack of finances. There's a lot going on Um I think in general is I struggled to find some sort of role model when I was younger quite a bit.

So I was invited to youth group when I had, I think, eighth or ninth grade in high school Um and you know it's like regardless of where I was, if I saw someone that was even remotely like invested into me or was willing to listen to me, I would look up to them as a role model. To some degree I kinda looked to my uncle like as that as a for a while. Because I didn't really grow up with a father Mm-hmm.

Lisa:
But he was the male in the house, but doing drugs.

Kyle:
This is it.

Lisa:
But the same thing. Right. Right. And it's only natural. You're looking and seeking for that person, right, right.

Kyle:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it was literally a case of like I mean I had these songs as well, that's why I was a getting emotional thing about the songs.

Yeah. Um there was a song and I mean some of these songs would like play on TV and I would like connect with the message. Was a song called A Little Too Much Um by Sean Mendes.

I heard it once and like I had it on repeat. It was like my life's anthem. But the lyrics literally go, um, uh, how's it go?

I can only s when I sing it, I get it. Okay. It goes, sometimes it all gets a little too much.

But you gotta realize that soon the what the sun will come up something. You don't have to be afraid. Um Because we're all the same.

Sometimes it all gets a little too much.

Lisa:
And that song was like We just become a musical podcast. I love it So that's so um

Joseph:
Poor Joseph's gonna be what songs can I got in my head?

Kyle:
Oh god that's the word.

Lisa:
He does the spoken word. You're doing singing.

Kyle:
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I love singing.

Lisa:
So how did that song hit you then? It was I mean Was it encouraging or hard?

Kyle:
It was more of like just relating and feeling like I was alone. Um I think I struggle with so much overthinking as well because I wasn't really fitting in anywhere. My mind would constantly run a mark of like, oh, you could have done better with that conversation.

You could have responded better. You could have been more manly with those guys. You could have I don't know, it was just a case of like no matter what the conversation was, I just kinda felt like I was separated from it.

And I was a little bit shy and introverted and I've Definitely come out of my bowels in the same.

Lisa:
I was gonna say I don't know that I was using but I I do understand that.

Kyle:
At like family gatherings, we used to call it functions because there's all these like family gatherings that happen all the time.

Lisa:
We're gonna confer just for a minute about the intro. We're not talking about behind your back, we're talking right in front of you. I love that though because now the the person I know, the Kyle I know, gets up on stage and like brings hope to people and Uh, you know, you bring a lot of encouragement to people and help people see that they are seen and heard. And it stems from your own story of you did not feel seen and heard.

Kyle:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was really I would go to my granny sometimes, I don't feel like there's big fights or whatever.

I don't know. Um, even in high school my mother and I used to have what I call these screaming matches where we just like scream and share at each other consistently. Like it was it was really bad.

But you know I would like my granny was probably the safest space I had.

Lisa:
I wondered was she like a safe yeah, yeah.

Kyle:
Yeah. I mean sure she was a part of the conflict. Um I'm gonna be real.

Uh I never say this is not podcast. I apologize in advance So my granny struggles with bipolar disorder, so she's also just as moody as the rest of us. So yeah, there's that.

Lisa:
Well mental health ties into So many things with all this so yes.

Kyle:
I think my mother had a bit of a depression. It was a case of when we were in high school. I'm sorry, I'm getting into the real details right now.

And I think it was either my eleventh grade year or my metric year. And this was just one of the many different times Where people in my household would constantly take pulls and try to commit suicide. And then I'm stuck trying to pick up the pieces, call the ambulance Get them washed out of like everything that's that's hard.

Lisa:
So you're seeing that too.

Kyle:
Yeah, yeah. It was literally they've attempted multiple times. to try to take their lives and I mean I wanted to do it myself.

I remember there was one time I wasn't fitting it with my cousins either and it's already I had a knife before and I'm like, you know, I just I just wanted to be over. Just wanted to be over and I howled there for a while and I just knew like there was something in me telling me like don't do it. There's so much better.

And I'm living on the other side of that now, but yeah, I'm not sure.

Lisa:
You're living on that side of it now. Exactly.

Kyle:
Yes. But Yeah.

Lisa:
Wow. Well, and it's interesting because every story is different. You had one way of like music and videos and stress.

You had stress, but also seeing some people in your world who you cared about choosing that potentially and having to deal with that. and the aftermath of of some of that. Well, Joseph, you're still alive.

So like while he's doing that if you want to eat something. This is not stress eating. This is if you were in my home, I would serve you something.

Joseph:
So as hospitality just Yes.

Lisa:
So uh you chose a different choice. You did not thankfully go down that road. What uh what How did you make a different choice to be allied?

Joseph:
I I remember this specifically. It'll be ten years since I first told a my mum I was first uh uh suicidal.

Lisa:
Really? I I even put o on my calendar ten anniversary anniversary, wow.

Joseph:
Um It was in um like my old church and I was coming from my a youth group after church and we were just hanging out. It's like a a small church. And um it and this is during all the YouTube stuff, studying for exams.

Um and at a time tying in to stuff, I was in in and out of battling uh pornography as well. So all that contributed to like shame and guilt and even more stress. And then there was a time uh in the youth group, like straight after the Surps ended, looking back now I know it was the Holy Spirit.

But for me it was just a a thought like you have to tell her. Now's the time to tell her. And I remember being so anxious a walking out into the car park or the car lot.

Lisa:
Because you do say things a little differently and they're the matrix I think the matrix in Europe, but that would like that would be senior year. Yeah. So you guys are this is international.

Joseph:
I don't even pick up the language deference, but it's been

Lisa:
I scored English.

Joseph:
So anyway. I mean it's different in types of English, but you know. Um I was walking out and um I think I was my younger uh brother was just running out of the car as younger as a pin studio and they run all over the place.

Um and I was like sh uh shaking and and everything. And I my mum w was or is in her choir, so she was having her choir practice at the time. And then I was like, uh Mom, can I talk to you about uh something?

And it's like uh my voice is shaking as I'm saying this. And and I said to her, I I've been having thoughts and she's like of a kind of thoughts and I like half stutter because I ha I have a history of stammering and stuttering and I stammered and it's good people did in the Bible.

Lisa:
Most did for example yeah like um

Joseph:
It took me stuttering saying suicide to her and she literally screamed what? Not in like a diminishing tone to me, but like uh I had no clue. All right.

This is going on. And she said, I will talk about it when we get home. And long story short is like from that one phrase I've been having these thoughts.

And to be honest, even in a stammering, hesitant, stuttering way, I still said it. And that was like a a release of just like I can breathe a bit. A little bit more.

Lisa:
Wow.

Joseph:
From then on it, it wasn't like a instant healing process. It was more like uh the weight was lighter. So the a week after I told her that I I got baptized.

Kyle:
Oh.

Joseph:
And 'cause I was thinking about about this and so and everything. But for me the real So the heaviness was lifted more when I just spoke. And a lot of us uh n nowadays and back then was like

Lisa:
I can't speak to no one about these things because of shame, guilt, da da da da um That's part of why we're having this conversation. Yeah. I it when you drag things out into you know the light.

Joseph:
Yeah Yeah.

Lisa:
You can deal with them when they're like in the hidden in the closets and the dark spaces like uh you know, of our mind And I love that you said that because that was an intentional I love looking for intentional choices of how to shift and to even say it. That's powerful. And just you felt like you could breathe.

Yeah. And it and it just feels like, you know, there are two things in the world. There's like to there's uh we live in a world where there's supernatural too and there's a dark part to that and a good part the theme of every movie is like the good and the bad you know and it is the real thing.

So like The the fact that the you know there is this darkness and we just feel like I can't say that. I can't say I'm struggling with pornography or that I want to choose to not live anymore or to whatever fill in the blank. Um I that's really powerful that you spoke it.

And and I love that now you do spoke and word and It gives life. And I hope that I know you've given life into like just that. I I do want to touch on okay, you said you got baptized, so it sounds like God had something to do with this somewhere here.

So tell us a little bit about that.

Joseph:
Like um like Um, what was crazy about all of this for uh up uh until then was months prior, my old pastor's wife, um Spoke to my mom about a dream she had about me going through something like this. However She told my mom not to tell me. I had to go through this.

Lisa:
Wow.

Joseph:
And when she told me that I was just like overwhelmed, I was like, Why? Why can't she just have told me this? That I go through all this stress and everything.

Lisa:
But no, uh she told her like But sometimes we have to listen. Nate, would you have listened?

Joseph:
You know, you never know.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Joseph:
Yeah. And When she told me when she told my mom that, I was like, wow. I I see why n now looking back almost ten years uh later, I'm like I'm glad it happened.

Because it would have either happened then or happened now or or whatever. Um and since then, like I think a lot of time in terms of like faith and mental health and stuff, it's very touchy a subject for uh many Christians and um even though it's yeah because it's um Especially in like actually in not not even too long ago, like it's highly stigmatized. It's like all you have for like uh demon you know something like that.

Something highly spiritual. Oh yeah, but something in the when for a majority of people it's just a result of the brokenness of this world. Plus other factors like upbringing and stuff like that.

Lisa:
And culture born into a broken.

Joseph:
And so you can like When I walk around now and I see my uh friends or my colleagues at work as well and I'm like there's a lot of heaviness. There's a lot of people stressed about this, anxious about this, this, this, this, this. And oh my god, I oh what can I do?

But like uh back then it was like during that summer period after I got uh baptized, I was like Fire Oh Jesus, I'm going to Yuthka, I'm doing this, doing that. And then uh we do A levels in the UK which like a 16 to 18. Um before going off into college or university.

Lisa:
Right. Right, right.

Joseph:
And I was doing that summer, I was going, Five for God, I'm happy, I'm energetic, da da da. And then More exams come around. And this time it was more of an anxiety mixed in with a suicidal ideation of like, I want to get a good grade, I want to do this, do this.

Lisa:
There's always some extra stress. There always is in life.

Joseph:
And so that was like a cycle for a couple of years. And then to almost uh piggyback on a similar example that Kyle shared about like Like it's as a trigger warning is quite graphic. Uh not too graphic. Um for me the closest I got to physically doing anything to calm myself physic was in Aside Little on the Underground is one of the highest places that people do attempt.

Lisa:
Um and I ho I the underground being the subway in the UK, the train, yes.

Joseph:
And sadly I was almost o one of them many times. There was a thought where I'll stand closh. But it it would be like um leaning unintentionally, like I I or or subconsciously I'll be like I'm moving uh forward. And this is after

Lisa:
Getting baptized and and asverging over up to Christ.

Joseph:
Like and there is that still wrestle to be like You don't need this. This doesn't need to be the end of year. Um and it was twenty nineteen and And what was crazy is that um I was preparing for a a speaking event at the Halter Life event actually in London and I was asked to do Sportport Road.

And looking back, it was the enemy, it was all these obstacles trying to stop me from speaking. It was the month prior that every time I would walk into my kitchen the thoughts of a certain object would be there and it'd be like, oh it was lies in my ears saying, oh, what would happen if you did this? And just just a a a little scratch, a little scrape.

And I remember at a time speaking to one of my little self-harm. Yeah, yeah. Which physically I've never done.

So that was a whole like scary thing for me. Uh years prior it was thoughts, it was uh videos and music. Now it's the physical part of it.

Um I I remember I wrote like uh sort of a very explicit journal entry on my phone about this wrestle. Journaling has been like one of the main things to like vent and be like, what's going on here?

Lisa:
I like that. That's another intentional choice to help us. And it sounds like you might encourage people to like to journal to it gets it out, you know.

Kyle:
Even if you're not a writer's It like gets to that point where your mind is running so much of a mocket you can't keep it to yourself. But you almost like don't know what to do about yourself. Like it's like it's like sitting there and you're like, I w I don't know what to do. It's either a these objects and stuff like different methods are speaking to me or B I try to like channel it and get it out some other way.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Kyle:
So like typing it out or um I don't know Like speaking at, for example, there's a certain level of like freedom that comes from that. Yeah. Right.

That we're like holding on to because well it's our only like sort of um what do we call it? I don't know, just a release of the thing. Yeah.

Lisa:
Well, and I like that because instead I I know for me, like sometimes it's like round and round and round in my head with thoughts and it's just like sometimes it does help just to get it on paper. For me, I it like helps to handwrite it even like sometimes I might type something, but Like for that I feel like it's a more personal way. I don't know about you guys, but I love how you said just get it out. Because if we don't get it out, then it also starts building up like physically. You know, it is even it affects us.

Joseph:
Like the amount of times me, I'm like a big f like sort of advocate for like like stretching and making sure your posture's good and Everything like that.

Lisa:
So we need to sit up straighter. I feel like I'm sorry. But like he's been wanting to correct my posture this whole time.

Joseph:
But like I I would often hear as a kid and my auntie my auntie who I call uh I'm a second mom. She knows who who she is. She is um she will o often tell her sons and my cousins, um, so uh your posture. And they're like a six wife and Right. So I'm like, I I wouldn't hold on to this.

Lisa:
But it's like it does come with a degree of okay, you're you value yourself. I get that.

Joseph:
That's really good. And it's crazy how psychologically and uh physically how or mixes I mean and your stress, your tensing, your body's just naturally just like on edge and there's kind of as shriveling, yeah.

Lisa:
Even watching you do that's almost like shriveling

Joseph:
it's not valuing the when it comes to like a suicide addition of uh for uh many people it's not always uh the same sort of linear experience it's like a mix of like thoughts, uh um shame and guilt in your heart plus the physical uh reality. So everything is just a bombarded with either at once or like over time. And when you think, oh, great, unnormal thoughts and you're like, here's here's the guilt, here's the shame.

So here we go again. And you repeat it. And so prior to that a event, I I remember sending a literal journal entry to my youth leader at the time.

'Cause I was a youth leader at the time, so and the leader of all the youth leaders. Um and she offered to speak to me as I was heading to the train station uh to head to a youth meeting. So I was doing all this.

I was leading youth, but I was still uh wrestling with my own mental health at at the same time. Um so yes I I wanted to help people but palm like I had to com battle at least real thoughts. They're not imaginary things.

Lisa:
Right. Yeah.

Joseph:
So there's A lot of things that people are going through i internally are real. They might not be always tangible, but they're real.

Lisa:
Right.

Joseph:
Um and yeah, so ever since I got uh baptized back in 20 uh 15, it's been like a a cycle of like good moments or higher like oh yes I'm good. I'm at peace here. Or even when I'm at peace a circumstance or something or family stuff.

That extra stress would just shake you a little bit. Um but I no, I praise God that over the last two years plus or so I've not had ideations. Or if they've come uh or they've been brief.

Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's been like I listened shake my head and say no. Like if I'm out on the street, I'm like no.

Lisa:
I want to jump back to some other like intentional reasons why like you've talked about uh, you know, relationship with God and Um, I kind of want to circle back to also like before you were listening to certain music, certain YouTube things, and what would you encourage people to? maybe listen to instead, but I want to jump to you. You're still live.

So like what's your story? Why are you here? So like and you jumped in on the journaling thing, but how did you You chose to still be here.

Kyle:
Yeah. I don't see like even circling back like sure journaling was one of those ways. But because it's for me, there wasn't really much of a safe space or somewhere you could retreat to.

I didn't really have anyone I could really talk to. Just because I mean sure I was broken and there was definitely something wrong with me and my mental health but at the same time so was every single person in my household. So there was not really anyone you could talk to because it was well it kinda felt like I was well everybody's already hurting, um, I'm just now, you know adding my drama into the mix and making it worse.

You kind of felt like anything to do with you, you almost felt guilt about that. And it's that's something I struggle today. Where it's like any like sort of attention that's drawn towards me or whatever it might be, it's like I'm so uncomfortable by that just because it's like Well, I don't yeah, I'm broken too.

So are you and that's okay. I don't know.

Lisa:
And sometimes like like I mentioned, like broken, yeah, we don't know it's any different. Like we're grow born into a broken world because of that one word that I know you guys are are aware of too that that God talks about sin as I N and that middle letter I is we're living for ourselves we're choosing my way. And so it's either we choose our way or God's way.

Kyle:
It's almost like we feel like we're never good enough. Yeah. Like we literally feel like we're never good enough no matter what we do, which is why the overthinking is like, oh there's I could have done this, oh there's this, this, oh there's that I was like what am I gonna do?

Like I had two alternatives. Either you journal about it or you run away. And I had so many opportunities where like I took a bag, walked like literally down to the store down the road and I'm like, okay, I'm done, let's go.

We're gonna get out of here And then like on the way at the same time like contemplating, I'm like, this is too hot. Like no, like how we're gonna get food, how am I gonna find something to drink? Where am I gonna sleep?

Lisa:
It's interesting because even in the running away you would hope that like there was another way

Kyle:
Yeah, pretty much. And I would always end up looking back, but it was almost uh sorry, looping back. But it was almost like I was stuck in these chains in this box and I just couldn't get out. And I was screaming and crying and asking for help consistently but nobody was answering me

Lisa:
Oh my goodness.

Kyle:
Oh, yeah.

Lisa:
And I hope that if anyone is watching, if they feel like they're in that place, that they know that they're seeing and heard and you at a certain point knew God sees you.

Kyle:
Yeah.

Lisa:
And we're not alone.

Kyle:
Like Tell us a little bit about that.

Lisa:
Like where did that come into the mix with all this?

Kyle:
No when it happened. But I came across and this is I mean it's probably one of the most popular songs ever, especially at the time. Um it's a song Power Music.

Lisa:
This is it. This is powerful for better and for worse.

Kyle:
Yeah it'll click once I say the name of the song, but it was Oceans by Hillsong. And there's that bridge of like spirit lead me where my trust is without borders. Every time that bridge would come and I'm like, there's something like okay, there's there must be more There's gotta be a hope.

It's like, okay, this song is clearly talking to a guy that might have better birthday. Um and every time there was like, you know, those things happening in the household and people screaming at each other and fighting and just a lot going on. is I would literally like find a way to like at least get that song on because that would be my like space of retreat of like okay the song is giving me something inside there's something bubbling up there's a hope inside That I I can't now turn back from once I've heard it, that there's might be something more out there.

Um so yeah, I I pressed into that for a while. Uh oceans was like the number one thing for me. And then I started to explore more c Christian songs.

It was what's it? Beneath the the waters or some I think it's called Beneath the Waters, I Will Rise. Also one of the Hillsong oldies.

Like the Umbragery goes, I will rise, I will rise. Um For Christ was raised to life, the song would go. And I was like, again, something's bubbling up inside.

I'm like, okay, something's drawing me in. Um

Lisa:
God has a way of doing that. Yes. When we we'll be feel the most hopeless.

And I know I've heard you all talk about that of just that tug in our heart. And God's the only one who can fill that that space. Wow.

So you chose life. You chose life. I love that you were talking about just even music choices.

What are your guys' thoughts on that? Because music is powerful. Like music can take us to a place.

Uh I I know I was watching something and there was a girl who like broke up with her boyfriend and her brother comes in and asks her something of so what are you doing? And he was going to invite her to go do something. She's like, Well I was gonna write out the lyrics to this certain song, which are really depressing, you know?

Joseph:
And extra effort to Oh yeah.

Lisa:
And and it's like but that keeps us in a loop of, you know Okay, I'm staying in the same place, but you guys like what kind of music do you listen to now? And you talked about music too, so that's a big thing for people. And what are you listening to and watching too?

Joseph:
I'll let you go first. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean like um I was uh I mean it is always both like youth for young adults. There's always some sort of trendy song going around or something. Um and uh a few years ago it was uh Brandon Lake's uh gratitude that was like really uh blowing up on uh social media at the time.

And uh for me it's uh the the song uh a million little miracles by M Matrix City uh music. And elevation worship. Yeah.

Why? Because When you again a YouTube is so again a good and bad, the video is like just a very intimate a circle, uh a worship. It's not like hype or anything, it's just You and God sing it.

And there's a part after it continues. And it the lyrics are got I got miracles and miracles. A million little miracles.

And it goes one two Count your mirror. One, two, three, four.

Kyle:
I can't even count them all.

Joseph:
Well and then there's a part after that happens and he says, I got breath in my lungs.

Lisa:
Uh I think I am so thankful both of you have breath in your minds. I you know yeah. Well I know but I know each of you got to a point of I don't want breath in my lungs That's a very real thing.

And so I r I love hearing that though. And sometimes uh one of the things it seems like is to choose to Stop the and breathe. Yeah.

Even in the ma I I do that in just in the when life gets a little crazy, it's like we can I think even our breathing tightens up. You were talking about being tense, but even when you talk to your mom, you know, uh you heard a song like for me it's just breathing. I I do want to touch on the thought.

I've I've mentioned this other times of Um, I know uh after my mom passed away, there are certain grief is very important to walk through and to walk through well and intentionally. But to lean in, I um I uh someone had mentioned at some point you lean in but you don't want to stay there. And I thought it was really good.

But uh one thing that that I couldn't help but think of sometimes is uh the thought of and the Bible even talks about take captive every thought. And you've talked about thoughts. You had thoughts.

I have thought you know, whatever the thoughts are about, whether it's not choosing to continue living or whatever it is I tatsu I love looking at verbs in God's word. And that captive, it's like take captive. I feel like it's like Tackle wrong.

Yeah. And sometimes I have to do that. Like recently there was a time I was in the car and my head just went a certain place and I'm like, Lisa, like my mom's been um gone several years now and I I was like, that's not a healthy place to go because that's gonna, you know, derail you and you're thinking And so I literally was like, nope.

And I literally had to choose to stop it and then then bring my money back. And I actually did turn a a an upbeat, you know, Christian song that really helped at that moment too. But it is that take captive and then the next word, every thought like I'm sure you felt like that with your thoughts.

And you felt that you know, I from what you're saying of because we do have thoughts. But they can't have to define us. But a thought is a real thing.

But uh what do we do with it. So I I really appreciate that wisdom of take captive every thought. And and sometimes get them on paper.

And you know what? I know someone mentioned one time to me of Then burn it liter but safely.

Joseph:
Don't need no smoke alarms going up on your place, please.

Lisa:
Um, but seriously, literally and then just getting rid of it and leaving that you know, that can be helpful. But um any other thoughts you guys on in there have been some intentional choices of choosing a relationship. with God because he does see us.

One of the things I love, I love this of um in Psalm, I love Psalms, it says, uh uh weeping may endure for a night But joy comes in the morning. And they think of that, that that's what God offers. Sometimes there is that weeping, that sorrow, that grief.

But he offers us joy and life and hope. And uh and that's something I I I hope offers hope today to anyone listening of giving God a chance, reaching out to him and choosing to have a relationship with him. He sees you, he knows you.

I love that where the Bible talks about there's a friend who sticks closer than a briar. Like, but I'm close with my brothers.

Joseph:
It's close enough.

Lisa:
It it's just real I love that. But what are some other things? We've talked about God, we've talked about intentional about what we're listening to and what we're watching. 'Cause sometimes also on social media, like you look at one thing, like I'll look at one thing and all of a sudden I have like A bunch of the next ten videos are all like along that and I'm like, why did I look at that one?

Joseph:
Oh the reels and you saw scroll now. This the whole day just reels.

Lisa:
So and it's kinda like that if we're looking at uh something that's going to help our mental well being or something that's not we're gonna like pull for that out. So but any other thoughts and just an intentional choice that has helped you.

Joseph:
I mean um I mean a lot of people aren't a fan of tattoos, but um I've got a bonus on me.

Lisa:
So is the window.

Joseph:
Yeah, I go I got quite a I go quite a bit.

Lisa:
But what do they say?

Joseph:
So the one that impacted me, well, I saw this the phrase again on uh social media over years, and it says, Your story's not over yet. This the a semicolon tattoo.

Lisa:
And that's like I've heard of that. Can you explain that semicolon? Yeah.

Joseph:
So it was created by actually a teenager, I think. over a decade ago, I think. Um and this person uh wanted to have like a physical uh reminder like I can I can keep going.

It's worth it. And the a semicolon is like if writing a sentence, it uh it joins two a sentence Together. So it continues your thought or it continues your action.

So it continues your life. It continues your life. And so it's like It there's so I got a tattoo uh on top, which is uh uh the birthday of my mom and myself, which a fun fact to be up on the same uh birthday.

Oh so and the way I I look at it is I would hold up uh my hand here. This has been our life starting and this is uh pause and it's gonna continue. So God has been so uh gracious to Again.

I could have been born in any error, any time purpley allowed us to be born for such baton as this in in and these errors But your story's not over yet and this one is still here.

Lisa:
Is that what that says your story's not over yet?

Joseph:
Yeah. So your story's not over at the summer goal. I don't know if you And these ones are um Taken years apart.

So it's like a reminder you have to intentionally make like keep going. And for my uh on my twenty fifth uh birthday, literally on uh the day I got uh this one. Resilient.

Lisa:
I don't know if you want to lean this way. I don't know what can be seen on the camera.

Joseph:
It says a resilient for those who could we can see it. Resilient and it in the description online is to be able to uh withstand hardship or want to uh withstand Just tough.

Lisa:
It was too much to get the whole depth of shit.

Joseph:
Yeah. Yeah. So just I mean impractice seriously.

But like, um, it's not I'm not resilient because of myself. I'm resilient only because God's given me the strength to be resilient in those heavy uh moments. So These atis, uh whether you're fine or not, um for me they're a constant a reminder that Whenever I'm getting dressed, whenever I'm out and about, I can just roll up my sleeve and look at it.

I close my eyes and be like. It's good and we're right. It's good and we're right.

Lisa:
And that's been big for you. I know for me, I have like I'm a big believer. A lot of times I'll encourage people to like write verses like on a four by six card or something and so I have like half of my bathroom here.

Like I can see to brush my teeth. You know, get ready in the morning. But I like while I'm doing that, my eyes can like drift to Different words of hope.

And so that's another thing I encourage people about. But put them anywhere, like your car, your bathroom mirror, where you're getting ready. You know.

That's funny.

Kyle:
So you spoke about like, you know, when you're looking at the words how it kinda reminds you and brings, you know, a certain sort of emotional narrative across And I think it we touched a little bit on music and before. It's like, you know, you don't realize it whether it's music, whether it's poetry, whether it's YouTube videos, whether it's Netflix, you know, everybody loves Netflix, Disney Plus, you name it, is they're all feeding us something consistently. And if your music is dark and you don't even realize it.

And you're feeling depressed and you have these thoughts running through your mind is there's a source uh somewhere that's feeding in the narrative. Um and it's like for me, so you asked about the music is for me my most of my playlist about a good ninety percent of my playlist, um, is for the most part Christian music. Not necessarily, you know, because yes, I'm a Christian and yes I'm a Jesus follower, but more so because the lyrics are life giving.

Yeah. Um and that's like really what what is speaking to me consistently, like the second I'm depressed and I would put a song. The second I'm starting to feel like really chaotic and like really like just frustrating and there's just so much going on.

is I'm gonna put in a song and it's gonna allow me to just calm down and we have this phrase called husa at home. Um it's just something I got from work. It's really a case of like you know like it's like a husa.

It's like a Calm down, just just just breathe.

Lisa:
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle:
So uh something that was was also really really freeing for me. Um is we used to have our boss say a lot and you spoke about how, you know, the Bible says to take your thoughts captive and basically, you know, submit it to God. It's literally so our boss used to say um in the workplaces, control the controllables And for me that basically translated in well you you know and everybody says this, it's so cliche.

But it's just like you can't control what people think of you, you can't control the type of conflict that comes out, you can't control how people act. You can't control all these different things that are outside of you, but you can choose to be happy. Yeah.

You can choose you are not your thoughts. Like the it's the Bible says to you know take your thoughts captive. The Bible is really saying you are not your thoughts.

You can watch them come in and say, Well, I'm not that. I yes, my mind might be telling me I'm good enough, but I you know, according to the Bible, we are God's children. We are Literally, the Bible says that um number well I'm gonna name a few verses.

Obviously everybody knows K She wants. Jeremiah 29, verse 11, for I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord. Plans for our hope in the future.

Right. There's that.

Lisa:
There is And in a dark moment where we might be thinking of taking our life, it's uh we don't feel like there's a plan. Yeah. We feel alone, isolated, hearing the voice job in the box Right, yeah, yeah. G is in the box.

Kyle:
So yeah, retreating to God literally gives me like a sense of identity, it gives me a sense of peace and security. It gives me a sense of like limited one. So that's the greatest 'cause like it you know, you can go to that secret space at any time of the day, whether it's five minutes on the train, whether it's You know, driving to work, there's always gonna be the gaps that you're able to just reset and readjust your eyes back on Jesus, cause ultimately He's the only one that satisfies the void that we have inside of us that's giving us that space in general.

Lisa:
Did you have another verse too? That I I know you mentioned that one. If not, that's okay 'cause I jumped in.

Joseph:
I was like, Which one do I choose?

Kyle:
Oh, which one was it? I can't remember. And I mean sure I brought it the cliche one. there was one but I completely forgot.

Lisa:
Oh you know what one thing I wanted to ask you though too while talking with you like how do you um do you avoid certain things too because like the thoughts like at the underground like uh the subway and and you're not the only one like there are other cultures and countries where that's But there is you know, do you avoid some things like that?

Kyle:
There's some trauma responses that I would say kick in. For me it's what responses? Like trauma responses Oh, okay.

Trauma reasonable. Because it's what the stuff is like you kinda like, you know, your mind sets back when certain things come up. It's really a case of like for me one of the biggest ones is I tend to be quite um sort of hiding from conflict sometimes.

Yeah. I tend to run away from it because I don't resonate. No, I've been looking for the I can I can resonate with that one actually correctly.

Crazy. Um even just growing up there were so many things, you know, whether it was alcoholism, gambling, pornography, you name it, it was all running amok in my family and it's like, you know I know that I definitely have addictive genes in my body, uh genetics. That's what I meant by genes.

Um and if I potentially get into that stuff, then I probably would get as hooked as just about every other generation in my family. Um so yeah, separating for myself is from some of those things.

Lisa:
From some of the traumas, right.

Kyle:
But yeah, there's definitely some marks that I guess we still it's a process of healing, it's a process of sanctification. It's a process and God is still healing your heart from so many things. But even one of the things that I would say is really hard is, you know, seeing family fight, seeing friends betray you, all these things consistently.

is like romantic relationships for me in my mind has been something of like, well I can't do that. Look what look what the fruit has been for like what I've seen my entire life. It's like, no how what would you die But God, your story's not over yet.

Lisa:
There we go. That's right. Literally.

Kyle:
It's a case of like, you know, no matter how far you've gone, no matter how deep you think you are, there's always hope Um the Bible says that what um for we have this hope that's an anchor for our soul. Um that's a good one.

Lisa:
I have that on my wall. I love that one. Yeah. Are there other things that you intentionally choose to not? like do or go or I think I I I've gone through like a cycles of

Joseph:
After like going through all of that stuff, I've been like, oh and let me try to go back to this old habits I had like scrolling up. On social media for hours before having time with God. And it made me really anxious before having time with God.

So one of the habits I have is before I check Instagram or anything. Even my phone, I I physically I said that by nine o'clock, no no like loud notifications. Oh uh you know And be there.

Lisa:
You have boundary.

Joseph:
I found myself being very insensitive to sound. Even when it's not early morning, just sound in general. Um and then uh a similar echo to Kyle, like I anyone who knows me h knows how much I dislike confrontation heavily.

And I put it in brackets unless I need to address something. I come from somebody who struggles. I was actually two two years ago so I was diagnosed with anxiety.

They call it a generalized anxiety. And it's it in general it's like being anxious about different things uh different things can trigger it. And a lot of time it's like being hesitant to do anything in case you make a mistake.

And for me, one of the many things I just do naturally, even my mom would even tell me as a kid, You were uh uh and the quietest child, compared to my uh siblings. And it's still to this day I've just quiet I've owned that quietness and be like, no. I'm I'll be careful not to go back into the cycle of the thoughts. But when I a a habit I had is to address them.

Like when no is like a con assistant for coming up but I go to con I I wanna on this.

Lisa:
Not just push it down. It's like the beach bow being pushed under the rock correct.

Joseph:
A lot of times I'm like If I'm out and about and I don't have concrete time uh to pray, I have headphones on and I'm going out to work, I would like stop and uh physically uh shake my head and say no. That's uh I don't know if I have it. It's just like Physically saying nope, I'm not gonna entertain that this thought. It's my way of like taking a thought academic shaking off like nope.

Lisa:
I like that. I like that nope.

Joseph:
Yeah. So And those different uh things have helped me. Um as well as during all that stuff I was going through, it was actually my one of my assistors who helped me to f dude therapy and s and stuff like that online and in person.

Go ahead my uh old history teacher actually helped me to organize or in school Brown's counseling during the anxiety wrestling uh when I was uh seventeen. Uh so there have been many different people who They've seen me being unusually quiet. So I'm normally quiet, but there's a next little bit of just like silence almost.

I'm just And then they speak to me and then um so different uh things have been like just being myself. Scared to be myself. Like I can be loud, I could be an agetic when I need to be, but a lot of time I'm just like My lifestyle now is a a lifestyle of gratitude.

Lisa:
Wow.

Joseph:
That's why that song hits a lot and the billion uh miracles, because When I'm speaking to a youth, there's like a practical step I answer everybody to do is I say check your pulse. And you feel that, keep going. That's one like a gratitude changes everything.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Joseph:
Like it really does. Even when you're going through stuff, I'm like, a perspective, you you used off this, this, this, this. There's many people, you have food, you have drinks, I don't know, clothing, and you you still have a functioning brain and heart that can still do what it needs to do. Hm. Um so gratitude amongst everything else has been humongous in my life to to where I am now and

Lisa:
Wow, it changes our perspective. It really does when all of a sudden we're like, okay, grumble, grumble, grumble, or poor me, poor me, and then it's like Okay, I'm gonna change and look for a second. You know, growing up, a lot of times I um my my family called things looking for God sightings in her days.

And that has been huge for me, uh, going through different things in life and even uh I and I've walked through other people with different things and been like, okay, where do we see God today? Might be as simple as uh someone reaching out to us, like people seeing you be extra quiet or um I you know, whatever the case might be is someone giving you a coffee or uh you know just something a verse you read, a sunset. You know And one thing I want to ask Kyle, maybe you can speak to this is community.

It seems like community like you guys have i if you have people who are going through similar things Um, you don't want to just have to leave them like you want them seen and heard, but community who are encouraging. Uh can you speak to that?

Kyle:
Well that's just it. And you touched on it towards the end there. It's like you're sure everybody has friends and sure everybody has family members and everything, but it's really surrounding yourself with people that are Willing to pour into you that are encouraging, that are loving, that are like I mean in my family um and I love my family today.

We're great and everything's amazing. Um be sure there's stuff that comes up and c conflict or whatever. It's family.

Lisa:
It's family.

Kyle:
Um but it's a case of like me and my family we never ever said I love you. To this day we still don't do that. It's straight up super awkward to me.

But then I'm surrounded by these friends who say it to me consistently and it just like strikes a nerve. And sometimes I'm like wait a minute, I struggle to say it back. Like there was one friend who literally refused um she would call me and then you know we'd end the call and she's like have you buy and I was like no no no no you're not gonna say buy like you're not gonna put down the phone until you also say have you buy and that's right and I would put down the phone then she would phone back.

She's like no like do you understand like Like we're in this for life. Like we're in friends forever. Like and sure, we maybe we will be friends forever, maybe we won't. But it's just that intentional like people investing in you, people like showing you like, hey, there's There is love, there is hope, there is people who actually care about you.

Lisa:
Yeah.

Kyle:
Um, whether you realize or not, can you know when you have like suicidal thoughts and stuff Everybody's like, oh, you know, that person just wants attention, that's why they commit suicide. I'm like, no, they don't want attention, they need help. That's that's the understanding. Right. They need the help.

Lisa:
Right. Is there any final thing you would say to someone who might be listening? I like there's lots of intentional choices of what to listen to, watch community journaling, just lots of different takeaways, stopping thoughts, um anything in particular you would say. Um and go ahead and speak to that person even.

Joseph:
Like I had to look directly at the individual or individuals. Oh watching this, could be a group even listening to this. Take it a day by day, cause our generation is like go, go, go, go, go, do this, do this, do this, do this, plan for next month, do that.

Wish planning is great. But you have to take it day by day. Because each day will ev eventually lead to a month, a year, et cetera.

And you have to address those stuff, the heavy stuff. regularly. Because if you let it fester, it would poison your mindset and thoughts.

Or you you would notice stuff about you that's like you're you're more an antsy. more sharp in your tone or something. Um and you haven't addressed it.

And for all of us here and especially uh for myself it's Relying on Jesus. Cause we don't just say as a cliche thing like without Jesus, I can almost guarantee I would not be here. Um and to see just Again, and mental health is uh and I I think sadly it will always be a heavy topic because it's so ingrained in our brains.

Um but The fact that you are still um showing up to school or showing up to work or showing up to your local coffee shop. That's great because you're still giving it another go. So giving life another chance and God can still meet there Um you continue to show up.

Your friends online and your game or something like you're showing up and and people are caring. Um so take it a day by day is my mod of probably uh the most effective advice I can give. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle:
Honestly, I what I would say, um, and probably what I would tell myself back in, you know, when I was caught up in that is it's okay not to know. It's okay not to know what the next step is. It's okay not to know where you're gonna go or where you're gonna end up or who you're gonna end up with.

And it's like, you know, Joseph was saying is just take that next step, keep showing up, keep learning, because we're all learning, and do it unapologetically. Be proud of yourself that you made that small step. Be proud of yourself and that you have these small little victories that people might not see or appreciate you for, but you can appreciate it.

And we appreciate that you're appreciated. Yeah. Um and just know that you are loved and you are cared for and there is people out there that are just waiting to meet you.

to get to know you, to be friends with you and tell you that they love you. Is hard as it may be to hear sometimes. And that you can be unapologetically yourself because God made you in a unique way.

He gave you certain Gifts and talents that nobody else has and a certain voice that the world has yet to hear. Um, but truly, truly, truly, you were loved, you were cared for, and there is so much more to come.

Lisa:
Oh my goodness. I thank both of you for being here. And friend, if you want to know this Jesus who Joseph and Kyle have talked about.

He's right there. You talk to God. Some people say pray.

It's just talking to him about anything and everything. And God just one we can either choose to live our way. Or God's way, and that sin is what gets in the way there.

And we can get rid of that sin by saying, God, I'm sorry for my way choices. Have hurt you and I choose to live your way. Will you please forgive me?

And Literally, we can choose to walk with Jesus, walk with God. And I'm so thankful you guys made that choice because it's given a lot of hope to you. And I hope it's given a lot of hope to you today, friends.

So Hang in there one day at a time. All these different things I hope will encourage you. And I'm gonna end with these words, when my heart is overwhelmed, this is in Psalms When my heart is overwhelmed, that happens a lot.

We can go on social media, read some news headlines. Yep. Overwhelmed.

Lead me to the rock that is higher than I And that is only God. And I pray that for you today, my friend. Jesus, I just pray for whoever might be watching right now.

Just touch their heart and life. And I pray they would hang on and choose to hang on to you and give them hope that life is worth living. And we thank you so much for this time together.

Amen. Thanks for being here, guys. So much.

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